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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What is the proper response to the abuses of the Catholic Church?

123 replies

intuitutifed · 16/07/2020 15:48

I don't think anyone can deny the industrial scale of the abuses perpetrated by the Catholic Church, particularly on the most vulnerable. What absolutely staggers me is how the institution still exists in its current form at all? In Ireland alone, the throwing of the dead bodies of babies into a site previously used as a septic tank by the Bon Secours nuns should in my mind have caused the instutuoin to be outlawed and its assets to be seized and frozen. And that was one single incident n one country. What about the lives ruined, the children abused by priests who lectured others on personal morality??I am absolutely not advocating it but I am somewhat surprised there has not been large scale reprisals or assassination attempts on senior figures within the church. I cannot believe that the Pope has got away with mealy-mouthed expressions of regret. Why isn't he incandescent with fury and ordering national public enquiries throughout the world, defrocking and jailing priests who are convicted of abuse and dissolving the church?

OP posts:
FrenchBoule · 16/07/2020 15:52

Child abuse still happening in Poland, CC and their “servants” are above the law.

endofthelinefinally · 16/07/2020 15:58

Well, some would say it is run by and for men and is based around control and subjugation of women. It does seem that any organisation based on that particular model can more or less do whatever they like.

onalongsabbatical · 16/07/2020 16:06

Because it is like growing up with your family and being unable to understand that they may be awful. It's fear, obligation and guilt at an institutional level. It will take AT LEAST two generations of non-believers to dismantle IMHO, and it's nowhere near that, hundreds of millions of people all over the world basically still buy the whole shemozzle, and are trained into institutional subservience.

lughnasadh · 16/07/2020 16:13

The Church is bigger then the abuses carried out in its name.

Many of the abuses are due more to local norms, and traditions, and interpretations, than teaching.

The good done outweighs the localised abuses, and the Church endures, I guess.

The Catholic church is part of a greater Christian tradition, the faith of its members is part of a vast history, and future. It's not a transient thing. It will never be open to the knee-jerk cancel culture springing up today.

intuitutifed · 16/07/2020 17:13

@lughnasadh

The Church is bigger then the abuses carried out in its name.

Many of the abuses are due more to local norms, and traditions, and interpretations, than teaching.

The good done outweighs the localised abuses, and the Church endures, I guess.

The Catholic church is part of a greater Christian tradition, the faith of its members is part of a vast history, and future. It's not a transient thing. It will never be open to the knee-jerk cancel culture springing up today.

The Church being bigger than the abuses carried out in its name? Do you think that is of much comfort to those who have experienced this abuse. As for the comment about the abuses being due to local norms, traditions and interpretations, what evidence do you have for this, and which Australian norm, tradition or interpretation gave rise for example to the sexual abuse of convicted paedophile George (formerly Cardinal) Pell? As for the faith of the members of the church being part of a vast history, well there was a history of enslavement of Africans for years in the USA, so does that make it something that should and will endure? I don't think there is anything knee-jerk about suggesting that an organisation which tolerated wildspread child abuse needs dismantling
OP posts:
Ohtherewearethen · 16/07/2020 17:31

I completely agree with you, OP. The covering up of, and active participation in, sexal abuse among other abuses, is a fucking disgrace. It has affected generations of women and boys and it being a :local norm' is no excuse for it at all. The pope sits on his golden throne on the Vatican surrounded by sexual predatory money counters while teaching that women, abused and starving, must have babies born to die or be taken away from them and made to feel ashamed. The reason Catholic priests must be celibate is because of all the corruption and nepotism throughout the history of the church. Yet they think they have the authority over women's rights to have or not have a child whole taking money from the poor and hopeless. I could go on but you get the gist of my feelings towards that filthy institution.

MissConductUS · 16/07/2020 17:38

I left the CC decades ago over the misogyny and medieval thinking.

Individuals can and should be prosecuted for crimes committed. How do you propose to "dismantle" the CC legally?

FourPlasticRings · 16/07/2020 17:38

Tbh I'd be surprised if the other main religious organisations don't have similar skeletons that just haven't come out yet. Any very large organisation will have abusive members and most will apply cover-ups to save face if they think they can get away with it.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/15/timeline-oxfam-sexual-exploitation-scandal-in-haiti

Ohtherewearethen · 16/07/2020 17:42

@FourPlasticRings - while I agree with you I feel it is different with the Catholic church as their many abuses are widely known about and proven. Just because other religions/organisations probably have similar dirty secrets it doesn't mean those known about should be ignored.

FourPlasticRings · 16/07/2020 17:50

Just because other religions/organisations probably have similar dirty secrets it doesn't mean those known about should be ignored.

Were the people involved not prosecuted?

onalongsabbatical · 16/07/2020 17:50

FourPlasticRings massive difference because the CC requires celibacy which drives men to abuse, yes, I know that's denied but I don't believe it. Plus it creates a huge double standard and men attracted to the priesthood are liable to be deeply divided and confused and misogynistic and troubled people. Etc.

NellGwynsPenguin · 16/07/2020 17:57

@intuitutifed hi,
I think it’s easy to point the finger at priests /nuns and those who run industrial schools as being the problem, because they are easily identifiable and ‘apart’ from society in general, but most child sexual abuse happens within families, perpetrated by family members and by and family friends, and by people who work with children in youth groups like the scouts.

Research shows in Ireland that one in five children is sexually abused, and that figure is reported by Interpol as being universally recorded in other countries.

One in five equals 20% of the child population - that’s 6 children in every class of 30, in every class in schools all throughout Ireland.
Most abuse is carried out by the male relatives of that child, often but not always with the knowledge (and denial) of the mother.

Yes, it’s true, in Tuam and no doubt other sites there are babies and their raped child mothers buried in cess pits, and a shocking record of historic violence and sexual abuse in industrial schools, but one in five children today in Ireland are abused by their own fathers, grandfathers, uncles, and male family friends, not by priests or nuns, and not by those hired on behalf of the Irish people to run industrial schools.

It’s easy to turn a blind eye to what the neighbours are up to, easier still to block out what’s happening in your own family- it’s easier to think about those who are somehow different from you and outside society and to start flinging stones at them.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s a good place to start - historic abuse and that done by religious people, but it’s not the end of the story. It’s not as simple a picture as that, and research proves this.

Most children in Ireland and other countries are sexually, emotionally and physically abused by their own family members, friends and neighbours, and peers, not by dog collar wearing boogey men, or people hired by the state to run schools.

OchonAgusOchonO · 16/07/2020 18:00

@FourPlasticRings - Tbh I'd be surprised if the other main religious organisations don't have similar skeletons that just haven't come out yet.

There were horrendous abuses in the Protestant mother and baby homes in Ireland. They don't get anywhere as much publicity as there were obviously, given the demographics, significantly fewer protestant ones.

That said, I completely agree with the op re the catholic church. They should, at the very least, have control over schools and hospitals removed immediately. Even when schools are no longer run by religious orders, as part of the agreement when they pulled out, the schools are still governed by a catholic organisation. Former mercy and presentation schools are governed by Céist, which has the well known liberal, Rónán Mullen on its board. Part of the "voluntary" contribution from parents goes to supporting that body whose mission is To provide a holistic education in the Catholic tradition. Based on my experience, this has resulted in schools that tolerate, rather than include or embrace, other religions.

Ohtherewearethen · 16/07/2020 18:06

Just because other religions/organisations probably have similar dirty secrets it doesn't mean those known about should be ignored

Were the people involved not prosecuted?

Not even close! This has been going on for centuries!

@NellGwynsPenguin - saying that most abuse happens within the family doesn't actually mean that there isn't severe, historic and current, systematic abuse within the Catholic church, and not just sexual abuse. It just means that it's happening aswell. Your 'dog-collar wearing boogey men' comment is utterly tasteless. Your whole comment reeks of denial that it happens at all, in fact.

OchonAgusOchonO · 16/07/2020 18:07

@lughnasadh - Many of the abuses are due more to local norms, and traditions, and interpretations, than teaching.

If that were the case, then you would expect those at the top of the organisation to do their utmost to eradicate the abuse and ensure those responsible paid for their sins. Instead, there was a systematic cover up.

The good done outweighs the localised abuses, and the Church endures, I guess.

That is all a matter of perspective. Even if you leave out the magdalene homes, the sex abuse etc, there was still widespread behaviour that was unacceptable. An example being, they provided education but there were many abusive animals involved in teaching. For their victims, the good did not outweigh the abuses.

The Catholic church is part of a greater Christian tradition, the faith of its members is part of a vast history, and future. It's not a transient thing. It will never be open to the knee-jerk cancel culture springing up today.

Perhaps some real acceptance of responsibility and compensation for its victims that is not court mandated might be in order. A bit of a christian attitude and approach might also be helpful.

WhatisFreddoingnow · 16/07/2020 18:11

FourPlasticRings massive difference because the CC requires celibacy which drives men to abuse, yes, I know that's denied but I don't believe it. Plus it creates a huge double standard and men attracted to the priesthood are liable to be deeply divided and confused and misogynistic and troubled people. Etc

So..... married men are more unlikely to be pedophiles? Its generally accepted that vast number of child abuses happen within the home or close family. Do you mean that celibate men and women are more likely to be pedophiles? They just can't control themselves? How about people unable to have sex due to disabilities?

For what it's worth, I don't think celibacy is the problem. It's the institutional cover ups that have angered most people (including catholics, priests etc). It has also been highlighted (more than other groups) in recent times.

Thankfully, safeguarding has become a HUGE focus in parishes and that will continue. I think Catholics are much more likely to speak up now ( I certainly wouldn't hesitate if I thought something wasn't quite right) and are encouraged to go to the authorities with any concerns.

WhatisFreddoingnow · 16/07/2020 18:16

There's over a billion catholics in the world so it's not something that is going to change overnight especially in some countries where it is ingrained into their culture.

Personally, I hope that the Church continues to make amends, to increase transparency and responses to allegations and highlight importance of safeguarding. The actual teachings of the Church remain absolutely true but we should continue to root out evil that has infiltrated the organisation.

Leaannb · 16/07/2020 18:17

This situation really speaks to me. I'm literally a survivor of the UK's Mother's homes and their illegal.adoptions to the US. I have an older sister who died in the care of Non Secur. The Catholic Church is not the only one who has blood on their hands. So does the UK govermemt, Salvation Army and millions of charities and social workers

endofthelinefinally · 16/07/2020 18:45

My local C of E vicar just got moved to another Parish when he was involved in all sorts of things that most men would go to prison for.

FourPlasticRings · 16/07/2020 18:53

Not even close! This has been going on for centuries!

Well yeah, but you can't prosecute the dead. So, in modern times, for crimes in which the criminals are still alive and their crimes proven, have the perpetrators been prosecuted?

FourPlasticRings · 16/07/2020 19:06

massive difference because the CC requires celibacy which drives men to abuse, yes, I know that's denied but I don't believe it.

I couldn't find evidence of this (admittedly just a quick Google)- do you have a link? Also, Buddhist and Hindu monks (not priests though) are generally celibate too.

men attracted to the priesthood are liable to be deeply divided and confused and misogynistic and troubled people

Source? And is this true for all religions or just Catholicism, to your mind?

isadoradancing123 · 16/07/2020 19:08

No, the good done by the Catholic Church most definitely does not outweigh the bad, absolutely no way

Ohtherewearethen · 16/07/2020 19:10

Nowhere near enough of them. Some high profile cases have seen the perpetrators jailed (as was the case in a local to me primary school) but it is usually hushed up, 'investigated' but conveniently found unproven or flat-out denied. And that's just the ones who were brave enough to speak out, despite years of brainwashing by the priests and nuns.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases_by_country

Puzzledandpissedoff · 16/07/2020 19:18

It will never be open to the knee-jerk cancel culture springing up today

I'd say it's hard to believe that anyone conflates the evil of child abuse with this, but sadly it's only too believeable given the willingness of some to submit to the church's control and parrot the line insisted upon

As for the church "being bigger than the abuse carried out in its name", it might be more accurate to say its insensate wealth is - along with its obsessive secrecy and infestation of far too many organisations, all of which continue to be used to evade responsibility

It's hardly accurate to suggest that it's only the catholic church though, or that other religious leaders haven't been prosecuted. Cases have been reported within the CofE, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and doubtless others - it's just that the catholic church, so far at least, appears to have more

FourPlasticRings · 16/07/2020 19:27

Nowhere near enough of them. Some high profile cases have seen the perpetrators jailed (as was the case in a local to me primary school) but it is usually hushed up, 'investigated' but conveniently found unproven or flat-out denied.

That's the case in most such cases though, isn't it? Particularly historical ones, where hard evidence can be hard to come by. And you can't punish people if you can't prove they did it.

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