What is the proper response to the abuses of the Catholic Church?

[intuitutifed]

I don't think anyone can deny the industrial scale of the abuses perpetrated by the Catholic Church, particularly on the most vulnerable. What absolutely staggers me is how the institution still exists in its current form at all? In Ireland alone, the throwing of the dead bodies of babies into a site previously used as a septic tank by the Bon Secours nuns should in my mind have caused the instutuoin to be outlawed and its assets to be seized and frozen. And that was one single incident n one country. What about the lives ruined, the children abused by priests who lectured others on personal morality??I am absolutely not advocating it but I am somewhat surprised there has not been large scale reprisals or assassination attempts on senior figures within the church. I cannot believe that the Pope has got away with mealy-mouthed expressions of regret. Why isn't he incandescent with fury and ordering national public enquiries throughout the world, defrocking and jailing priests who are convicted of abuse and dissolving the church?

No, the good done by the Catholic Church most definitely does not outweigh the bad, absolutely no way

I'm not convinced of this.

www.thejournal.ie/readme/what-has-catholic-church-ever-done-for-us-4199150-Aug2018/#:~:text=The%20Church's%20teaching%20in%20relation,as%20they%20did%20within%20the

@FourPlasticRings -seriously?! They've said that 'The Church' is all followers of Christ, not just Catholics, all Christians. What, specifically, has the Catholic church done that is so wonferful, in your opinion?
That bit about women's rights is absolutely laughable. 'The Church' has forbidden birth control and abortion, even when vital for the woman's health. They make rape victims feel ashamed as though it was their own fault and if they became pregnant they were sent away, banished from their homes in shame or sent to a Magdalene Laundry where they and their child, if if wasn't killed or stolen from her, were subject to even further abuse.
They preach about going to hell if they don't do x, y, z. They take money from poor people to add to their sickening stash of billions. They make people feel frightened and guilty and have to confess their 'sins'. Apparently though, as I'm sure many a priest and nun has reconciled with themselves before, reciting a Hail Mary whichever number of times the priest sees fit means their sins are forgotten. It is utterly sickening. It is a cancer that needs eradicating.

The cc knocks me sick. I grew up in rural Ireland and I saw the control it has. My parents and their friends truly believe that the priests who abused children, only joined the church to abuse children and have all priests a bad name. They cannot see the truth simply because they don't want to

The cc knocks me sick. I grew up in rural Ireland and I saw the control it has. My parents and their friends truly believe that the priests who abused children, only joined the church to abuse children and have all priests a bad name. They cannot see the truth simply because they don't want to

@FourPlasticRings - to add to @Ohtherewearethen points. Christianity resulted in the abolition of brehon law in Ireland. One of the most important brehon laws was that of hospitality to all, rich or poor, and was a type of charity. Just because the Romans were perplexed at charity, doesn't mean other societies were. Equally, women enjoyed significantly more rights under brehon law than they did under any Christian system.

So, no, that article attempts to obfuscate in order to pretend Catholicism is something unique and progressive.

not by dog collar wearing boogey men

Far, far too many were abused by ‘dog collar wearing bogey men’ to use your term.

I find your minimising of the abuse absolutely sickening. I don’t know how people like you sleep at night.

In answer to the OP’s question, the Catholic Church has a very powerful hold over its people and in Ireland at least it’s as much a tribal and cultural thing as a moral and religious one.

People are good at the mental gymnastics that separates the positives the church has brought with the systematic evil that was allowed to exist within in. It’s complicated is what I’m saying.

But the Catholic Church has had hundreds of years to establish itself at the heart of communities and drive the PR message that it’s a force for good. That takes some dismantling.

Promotion of woman’s rights? OMFG.

That is hands down the biggest load of bollocks I’ve ever seen referenced on here.

Congratulations, that took some doing.

The CC is filthy in my eyes. As agnostic/ atheist. Especially in Ireland, but not limited to. As I am somewhat removed from the situation, don't feel there's a lot I could do. If there was a major call for a very thorough investigation and a proper punishment, I would support it.

I also don't think it is just historic. Abuse in the CC continues.

Promotion of woman’s rights? OMFG.

That is hands down the biggest load of bollocks I’ve ever seen referenced on here

Think about it though. What were women's rights like before the Catholic Church began? You're going back a very long time. Our society as we know it was built on the teachings of the church and the new testament is a damn sight better than the old in terms of the treatment of women.

The Catholic Church has influenced the status of women in various ways: condemning infanticide, divorce, incest, polygamy, and counting the marital infidelity of men as equally sinful to that of women. The church holds abortion and contraception to be sinful, recommending only natural birth control methods. The role of women in the church has become a controversial topic in Catholic social thought. Christianity's overall effect on women is a matter of historical debate – it rose out of patriarchal societies but lessened the gulf between men and women.

That's just Wikipedia, but I'm on 7% phone battery so don't have time for more extensive googling.

My children were both baptized by a woman priest. That alone was worth switching.

The CC had so much power for so long that they considered themselves above the law and that the rules didn't apply to them. That mentality allowed for the abuse to flower unchecked. It's been very satisfying to watch whole dioceses going bankrupt and having to sell properties to satisfy the legal judgments in the US.

The CC has been knocked back quite a bit in the last 20 years but to my mind there's plenty of knocking left to do.

The Catholic Church has largely evolved to have control over its members, from their perspective for eternity. It has a history of exploiting its followers both financially and sexually as well as spiritually.

But it has a massive hold over its membership, it sells itself as being the gatekeeer of eternal damnation or salvation. That tells quite a few people in its organisation that they aren’t in a position to challenge any wrong doings. Unfortunately it is that entwined with the state system in so many countries it would be impossible to take it down.

Theologically the Catholic Church would be easier to shoot down as based on lies than the tooth fairy. Most of it is based on what some bloke said when he got the top job rather than scripture, just ask a catholic to DNA test the bread and wine if they’re that confident about trans substantiation (although they usually try and fudge the issue nowadays).

But the Catholic Church will continue to protect its own because fundamentally they think that God is in their side

I believe pagan culture was pretty respectful of women actually.

And quoting the wiki at us is laughable. Any joker can write anything they want on there.

@FourPlasticRings - Think about it though. What were women's rights like before the Catholic Church began? You're going back a very long time. Our society as we know it was built on the teachings of the church and the new testament is a damn sight better than the old in terms of the treatment of women.

There are options other than old and new testament you know. You ignored my point about brehon law and women's rights being significantly better under that than they ever were under the catholic church.

What, specifically, has the Catholic church done that is so wonferful, in your opinion?

They had a fair bit to do with education, health and social care in the times before the government took it on. Not perfect by any means but better than nothing. And religion in general serves a purpose in actually creating a society with functional laws and social cohesion. Obviously this is less necessary as time goes on (and I'm not saying they were brilliant by any stretch) but the church had a fairly substantial hand in how the nation developed. Caused lots of harm too, of course- let's not forget the crusades.

And WTAF have I just read about women’s rights? The Catholic Church is based on the supremacy of men over women, women are treated as either chattels or prostitutes or vessels to carry out Gods will.

There are options other than old and new testament you know. You ignored my point about brehon law and women's rights being significantly better under that than they ever were under the catholic church.

I'm not Irish, I have no idea about the Brehon law and I'm down to 5% now so I'm not going to be researching it at present, I'm afraid. Ireland may have been worse off after its introduction, and it certainly seems to have stuck around there with far more tenacity than in England, but that doesn't invalidate the point that in some areas of the world it may have done more good than harm.

And WTAF have I just read about women’s rights?

My mind is actually blown that someone would straightfacedly try to make this argument. It's like the worst cognitive dissonance I've ever seen.

I am a catholic and I practice my faith. I will never condone or try to defend any of the awful things that happened. However child abuse is prevalent in all areas of life not just in the Catholic Church. It happened in football clubs and the fans still support the club?

It happened in football clubs and the fans still support the club?

It strikes me as a fundamentally different situation when the organisation holds itself up as a bastion of moral authority. No?

I'm of the opinion that priests and nuns are mentally ill people. Not people who suffer from mental ill health but mentally ill.

I agree with you OP. I grew up Catholic and I have completely closed the door on involvement with that institution. I can't support it even tacitly as I'm so horrified about how the abuses were allowed and covered up. Ireland (where I'm from) has a particularly shameful history with the most vulnerable members of our society molested or forced into work houses with their children removed from them. And Irish people went along with it - they allowed it as well. It's hard to understand how it is still supported in any way with babies still being baptised and schools still being largely denominational.

I understand how the church got such influence after the establishment of the state in Ireland but I don't get the continued support now.

Oh and the proper response is total abandonment of the institution.

Well, it's what I've done.

The Catholic Church is based on the supremacy of men over women, women are treated as either chattels or prostitutes or vessels to carry out Gods will.

They did various positive things. Banning polygamy, incest, making it the duty of men to look after widowed spouses of their brethren (by dubious means, I grant you shudders at the thought), making divorce illegal so that men couldn't just toss their wives and kids aside as they pleased (a double-edged sword yes, and not a good thing to modern eyes, but still protection from destitution in a landscape where women had no rights and couldn't realistically support a household on their own), making infidelity by men equivalent to that by women etc.

So, by today's standards, they are definitely holding women back. However, from an historical perspective, I can well believe that they made a positive contribution to women's rights.

@FourPlasticRings - quite a number of pagan societies had significantly better rights for women. Judeo-Christian societies have never been exactly progressive in that regard. I think it's safe to say that most societies took a retrograde step in women's rights with the introduction of christianity when it replaced paganism.

My mothers side is Irish Catholic. The things the priests and nuns got away with is criminal. They were evil.

The Anglican Church is just as bad. Helping to send along with the Catholic Church 130,000 children to Australia to do hard labour and build their fucking churches and to be sexually abused too.

If a priest or vicar was accused of sexual assault they were just moved to another parish to continue what they did! You could be locked in an asylum for accusing a priest for sexual abuse. A priest could banish you from your community or instruct your father to beat you and no one would speak up.

I have family a members that has suffered at the hands of nuns, she calls them witches. They tortured her.