What is the proper response to the abuses of the Catholic Church?

[intuitutifed]

I don't think anyone can deny the industrial scale of the abuses perpetrated by the Catholic Church, particularly on the most vulnerable. What absolutely staggers me is how the institution still exists in its current form at all? In Ireland alone, the throwing of the dead bodies of babies into a site previously used as a septic tank by the Bon Secours nuns should in my mind have caused the instutuoin to be outlawed and its assets to be seized and frozen. And that was one single incident n one country. What about the lives ruined, the children abused by priests who lectured others on personal morality??I am absolutely not advocating it but I am somewhat surprised there has not been large scale reprisals or assassination attempts on senior figures within the church. I cannot believe that the Pope has got away with mealy-mouthed expressions of regret. Why isn't he incandescent with fury and ordering national public enquiries throughout the world, defrocking and jailing priests who are convicted of abuse and dissolving the church?

@NellGwynsPenguin - yeah, sorry but your post just makes me think even less of you. You keep repeating 'fathers, uncles, brothers...' etc as though it's a mantra that's been drummed in to you. There is no way that in your 30 years of working with 'thousands and thousands and thousands' (so presumably hundreds of thousands) of sexual abuse victims in Ireland that you have never experienced a survivor of sexual abuse from a member of the church. No way. Your post is absurd and seems hell bent on deflecting blame from priests to every day people. Are none of these 'fathers, uncles, brothers' catholics too? Are they not part of the church? I'd have an even harder time believing you if you told me that none of the hundreds of thousands of abusers you knew about in Ireland weren't good Catholic men. Presumably they confessed their sins to the priest who then wanked himself cross eyed while doling out hail Marys to the 'father's, uncles, brothers', aka child raping bastards. The abuse survivors you claim to have worked with deserve better than you.

Just to provide another perspective on Ireland... the pregnant girls were sent away by their families, who were too ashamed of them to let them stay at home. The mother and baby homes was the church's response to that, thinking it was doing the right thing by housing them and at least making sure they had a roof over their head. However like any institution without proper checks and safeguarding, there was horrific abuse and mistreatment. I think most people had miserable lives back then - the girls that were admitted to the homes and the nuns who ran them (religious positions back then were often a way of escaping your life/family/poverty etc). Which must have created a toxic atmosphere with little kindness. The church must take responsibility for its actions but don't forget society who treated unmarried mothers like pariahs, and sent away their own daughters rather than be embarrassed by them.

Abuse also happened on a large scale in boarding schools, childrens homes, etc so not limited to the church. It was all of a time when men held all the power and women & children were seen as inferior and not worthy of care and respect.

Just heartbreaking all round. I do agree there needs to be more rigorous prosecution of offenders, regardless of how old they are now.

@Wolfgirrl - but all the things you describe were because of the Catholic church's hold over the people of Ireland! Why do you think 'society' treated unmarried mothers (rape victims) like pariahs? Do you honestly not see the link between the Catholic church's views and those of wider 'society'?!

I remember growing up there was still a lot of pressure on eldest sons to become priests (Irish side of family). There was a lot of honour to have a priest in the family. I wonder how many wanted it really.
I’m not excusing it but I think forcing unwilling men into celibate lives may have consequences (including affairs with married housekeepers which happened locally).

I was taught by nuns and have nothing but good to say about them. They were a small order, but they were selfless and hardworking good women. I’m not in the slightest bit religious now but I still think highly of them and what they sacrificed for what they did (most of the priest I knew were arseholes though).

Repentance might be starting www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/17/pope-francis-ends-pontifical-secrecy-rule-child-sexual-abuse-catholic-church

@onalongsabbatical

FourPlasticRings massive difference because the CC requires celibacy which drives men to abuse, yes, I know that's denied but I don't believe it. Plus it creates a huge double standard and men attracted to the priesthood are liable to be deeply divided and confused and misogynistic and troubled people. Etc.

Just to be clear are you saying you do believe celibacy is a contributing reason to why many priests have raped children?

I love sex. I would never actively choose a lifestyle that meant I couldn't have sex again due to rules such as priesthood.

If for any reason whatsoever, in the world, in any circumstance I could either never have sex again or have sex with a child aka rape a child, I would obviously never have sex again. Obviously. Because I am not a paedophile or a sex offender.

Think of a man in your life. A partner / brother / father. You really think that if they could never have sex again it would even cross their mind to have sex with a child? You must be open to that being a possibility if you believe priests being celibate (by choice by becoming priests!) is a reason they have rape children. And it is rape because children cannot consent.

The proper response is to ditch the catholic church completely and return to the pagan religion of your original country like I have done.
Apparently it is becoming quite a thing. All over the world people are returning to their pagan origins. It's a big thing in Lithuania and many of the african countries are returning to pagan religions as well.
I live in Glastonbury and there is an awful lot of it here. People are quite open about returning to paganism.

@Ohtherewearethen

Yes but society as a whole was far more conservative back then, even in non Catholic countries like England. England also had similar institutions for unmarried mothers etc

Celibacy isn't the reason why some priests abuse children, obviously. It happens in other denominations where priests/pastors are allowed to get married and have families. But unfortunately, paedophiles do gravitate to these roles, because it provides them with access to a lot of vulnerable children.

The problem really is that priests in the RC Church and church leaders in other denominations get placed on pedestals and this means that church members refuse to believe that they're capable of doing what children say they've done. (After all, children tell lies, don't they?)

This isn't really just about attitudes to women and girls, though. A lot of the victims of victims of abuse by RC priests are boys after all. It's about the attitude towards children; they're supposed to be seen and not heard and obey their elders. It's certainly what my F used to say. (It was about misogyny in his case, though.)

These people also target vulnerable children as well, who are unlikely to be believed.

"God" has a lot to answer for.
Religion is poison.

Many of the abuses are due more to local norms, and traditions, and interpretations

Here in Ireland/Northern Ireland, we don't have any local norms, traditions or "interpretations" of religious teachings that it's appropriate to rape children.

I don't think they have in America, or Australia or really anywhere.

The Catholic church became a magnet for and haven for child sex abusers.

Because they had unquestioned authority and deference, and because they let them.do it without putting them or punishing them, for their own benefit.

As to whether the church dies more good than bad, debatable!

*without outing them

I feel the proper response is for many to turn their back publicly on the Catholic church, and be willing to say why.

There is no justification and the PP who said the Church is bigger than the abuses carried out in its name utterly horrifies me.

The problem really is that priests in the RC Church and church leaders in other denominations get placed on pedestals and this means that church members refuse to believe that they're capable of doing what children say they've done

The behaviour I've seen and heard from church goers towards priests, and especially bishops, has reminded me of the sort of extreme deference and idealisation that cult leaders and Hitler for example have been treated with. They would nearly crawl on their knees to be acknowledged by a bishop, they're like super stars to them.

A Catholic ex of mine's late mother was fixated on the fact that there was no bishop in place in her diocese .. It was a constant topic of conversation (and hand wringing) in the area.

I think part of it is related to the fact that people have been convinced that those priests and bishops are their conduit to God, and instrumental in saving their souls. So they'd do anyhing to curry their favour and get one acknowledgement from them.

I feel the proper response is for many to turn their back publicly on the Catholic church, and be willing to say why.

I totally agree.

However, in Ireland, it’s obvious that people find it difficult to extricate themselves culturally from the church, even if they have no use for it religiously and are disgusted by it morally.

And there are fundamental human needs that organised religion delivers to. Finding something to fill the gap is difficult. The point about paganism upthread is very interesting.

We're from an Irish background but in Australia. Dad left the RCC in his early twenties after what he witnessed growing up. My grandmother always hoped he would return. Here is why

For a couple of centuries Catholicism was banned in Ireland upon pain of death. People would meet in the woods secretly to have mass at rocks. Gaelic was banned, traditional dress, so was owning property, so was education, so was the right of Catholics to vote etc etc.

So for many Irish the assault upon the church was closely connected with the assault upon them and their cultural identity.

Don't get me wrong - the church is still a massively powerful institution which has demonstrably abused it's privileges over and over again (and often betrayed the Irish people) and at high up levels has been implicated in terrible crimes but that is not why many Irish people continue to support it.

And the men working within that chit h know that - they know they have it set up so that people feel they have power/influence in what happens then.in life and any life after death, and they make sure they extract as much money out of them as possible through it as well.

The Catholic church is one of the richest organisations in the world yet there they are; rooking money out of impoverished pensioners on a regular basis.

What group or community do we feel safe in? The Church? Scouts? Boarding school? Guides? Another denomination? Another faith?

I don’t know the solution. Humans are social, they want to share traditions and devise structure. Would we dictate religious gatherings or actions are illegal? Drive it all underground?

Every single institution I can think of has some level of historical abuse or problem. So do we become isolated family units in the modern ideal society? Or rely on the state to provide everything (for me growing up in the USSR this is scarier than the church...)?

Personally I think the church has done awful things, and there’s no resolution- it’s a constant journey of improvement and challenging the past, but church also provides connection in my life. I’ve had opportunities and friendships. It’s not as simple as being ‘bad’ and me being better without contact. I don’t feel controlled.

We are all different, but personally I look at some friends and they seem to have disconnected lives. A bit lonely. If I need a babysitter/ friend/ help I have a community of women I know and trust. I have a baby, I have tens of people to call on to cook for us or watch the older ones. I need childcare, I ask around the church. Kids want language/ music lessons- I ask around the church and pay what I can. It’s very supportive of my life. When my sister had huge MH difficulties and I couldn’t cope they shared the burden of contact, checking on her more than I could whilst keeping my own sanity. My friends through other places are often Moaning about finding childcare, no babysitter or no contact. Some I know like this, but to me it seems a harder way of living life in a city.

I support the abuses being tackled head on, never excused and the individuals facing the law and I acknowledge fully the wrongs. But I also want a modern transparent church, in new terms to fight for. I don’t want to lose my community or history. I think the culture and society of places are reflected in the church’s actions in certain places. Where I am from the overriding problem is corruption, which again reflects the country the priests operated in. The church though has far more female sway than some places. We don’t have the schools history (There were additional Sunday school type activities but not actual schools) or women being sent away to birth connected to the church. It was a big part of life, but not involved in running state institutions.

@GilbertMarkham

But I'm afraid that non Catholic denominations have as much to answer for when it comes to protecting abusers. But from what I've seen, it isn't so likely to be a vicar/pastor. It's more often the case that the pastor tells a victim not to report the abuse to the police so as not to 'bring shame' on the church.

It's why my F got away with it, and passed away 22 years ago without his abuse having been exposed. He asked forgiveness from my DSis for what he'd put the two of us through when we were children, but it was 20 years too late.

And, as I said earlier, it's still happening now. My friend's DH wasn't the pastor but the pastor of the church tried to bury it under the carpet.

We're from an Irish background but in Australia. Dad left the RCC in his early twenties after what he witnessed growing up. My grandmother always hoped he would return. Here is why

For a couple of centuries Catholicism was banned in Ireland upon pain of death. People would meet in the woods secretly to have mass at rocks. Gaelic was banned, traditional dress, so was owning property, so was education, so was the right of Catholics to vote etc etc.

So for many Irish the assault upon the church was closely connected with the assault upon them and their cultural identity.

With respect, @Mimishimi, that is a classic emigrant mishmash of emotive identity politics and historical blurring. Most of the Penal Laws were repealed by the end of the eighteenth century. The Catholic Emancipation Act was in 1829.

After independence, the Catholic church and the Irish Free State and later the Republic of Ireland were so enmeshed as to make the Church the major stakeholder in the state -- not only did it dictate laws on divorce, contraception, abortion etc, it controlled most of the state's hospitals, schools and provided many of its 'social services', including, of course, running the mother and baby homes, the Magdalen laundries, the industrial schools which were part of the incarceration politics of Ireland for much of the 20thc.

Unless your grandmother time-travelled to Australia from the Penal Law era, she cannot really believe in Irish Catholicism as a badge of underdog colonial identity, when in fact it was essentially an arm of the state and firmly in control of the lives of its people for much of post-independence Ireland's history.

Yeah, our ancestors pretty much came out during and after the Famine and those things were still very real to the older generations even well into last century. We were the underdogs here too.

Sory, @Mimishimi, I realise in hindsight my post sounded as if was completely dismissing your grandmother's experience. What I meant to say was that actually living through the hegemony of the Church in 20th c Ireland particularly as a woman, and a woman who had her antenatal care in the same maternity unit where Savita Halavannapar died makes it impossible to see it as anything other than supremely powerful.

Repentance might be starting

Thanks for the interesting link; on the face of it that sounds positive, but it might be wise to wait and see how it turns out in practice
Other "commitments"s have appeared over the years, all of them no doubt in response to appalling publicity and possible loss of funds, but it's results rather than words which count

Overall, I'll believe it when the church - instead of making promises about the future - opens up for police inspection their records over what's happened already