What is the proper response to the abuses of the Catholic Church?

[intuitutifed]

I don't think anyone can deny the industrial scale of the abuses perpetrated by the Catholic Church, particularly on the most vulnerable. What absolutely staggers me is how the institution still exists in its current form at all? In Ireland alone, the throwing of the dead bodies of babies into a site previously used as a septic tank by the Bon Secours nuns should in my mind have caused the instutuoin to be outlawed and its assets to be seized and frozen. And that was one single incident n one country. What about the lives ruined, the children abused by priests who lectured others on personal morality??I am absolutely not advocating it but I am somewhat surprised there has not been large scale reprisals or assassination attempts on senior figures within the church. I cannot believe that the Pope has got away with mealy-mouthed expressions of regret. Why isn't he incandescent with fury and ordering national public enquiries throughout the world, defrocking and jailing priests who are convicted of abuse and dissolving the church?

Oh don't get me started on Mother Theresa! A saint she ain't!

cardinal pell was released and his conviction quashed in april the judgement said there was “a significant possibility that an innocent person has been convicted because the evidence did not establish guilt to the requisite standard of proof” i make no comment but you should be aware from a legal standpoint he has been found not guilty.

I can speak as an SA survivor, who, along with my DSis, suffered at the hands of my F and others. We went to a conservative evangelical church; there were those that knew what was going on and turned a blind eye. I also went to a convent girls' school, where I was abused by a priest who was the school chaplain.

It was never spoken of and it was swept under the carpet. There were many others who suffered in that way too. My DB was abused but not by my F. He was part of a paedophile network.

I'm 50 years old now. I suffer from complex PTSD and CFS (and now COVID-19) symptoms). My DSis has PTSD, anxiety and vaginismus (she can't participate in penetrative sex). We both have DC and loving DHs now (though my DSis's first marriage was abusive).

I thought that evangelical churches were more aware of sexual abuse these days, as they now do DBS checks on children's workers. But I now know that they still turn a blind eye to childhood SA. A friend of mine was told that she shouldn't report the abuse her DD had suffered at the hands of her then DH (the stepfather). The pastor she spoke to said that if she reported it she would bring shame on the church. He also said it was her fault for not being a good enough wife.

My friend and her DD did report it. But her DD (then 17) didn't want to go through with a trial so she withdrew her statement.

So sadly nothing has changed. The RC church has been exposed, and it is time for a light to be shone in other denominations.

I'm still a committed Christian, having gone through a lot of therapy and soul searching. Because God isn't to blame, he was with me during the worst experiences. It was my F who was entirely to blame. (My DM didn't know anything.) Other church members were to blame too for not doing anything about it.

I definitely blame the church for what happened to us. Because they clearly don't consider the safety of children to be the priority. They're also guilty of hypocrisy; they tell young people that sex should only take place in marriage, but turn a blind eye to men committing sexual abuse against children.

@Ohtherewearethen - Oh don't get me started on Mother Theresa! A saint she ain't!

And the fact the canonised her, despite her well documented appalling treatment of the poor and sick, tells you all you need to know about the attitudes of the Catholic hierarchy. The main reason she was canonised was her work in opposition to abortion.

Indulgences haven't been sold for a very long time ... It's simply untrue that we ever have to give to any charity

I realise that, stuck in an impossible situation, some of the faithful have to get pretty creative in defending the church's evil choices, but please don't imagine this word twisting fools anyone any more

I actually made it very clear that indulgences aren't supposed to be sold now, and that charitable contributions are one of the options as opposed to being compulsory, but quite frankly anyone who imagines the church will fail to take advantage of this is further into denial than I thought possible

In all institutions there are bad apples and rotten practices. It is up to those in charge, or those who know about abuse to speak up and root out the rot. That the church continues to shelter the abusers is what makes them unfit

This is precisely the point. Even the church can't be everywhere all the time, but it takes an especially evil mindset, on hearing of appalling abuse, to think first of how to cover it up instead of dealing with it properly

And please don't anybody try to claim "it's all different now" ... not while the obsessive secrecy over church records remains

No it isn't all different now, very sadly. I actually did think it was different now from when we were abused in the late 70s and early 80s. It wasn't so much a shock that people sometimes turned a blind eye (that unfortunately happens in all walks of life), but it was the fact that my friend was told by her pastor not to report the sexual abuse her DD had gone through and blamed her for it.

What made this worse for me is that this pastor is someone we previously thought highly of, and he's someone my DB trusts. My DB is very badly damaged and he's always claimed that he doesn't remember what happened to us as children.

These people have a lot of influence over vulnerable people.

What is particularly disgusting about the Catholic Church example ...

They set themselves up as a moral authority. They were lecturing others on wrong doing while doing this.

It was systemic and facilitated at the highest levels.

They abused power to a sickening degree. Their victims were the most vulnerable in society, they made sure they were too afraid to say anything and they created a culture where they wouldn’t be believed if they did.

They have never expressed anything like appropriate remorse or acknowledged the victims pain and trauma.

It’s nothing short of depraved really.

What made this worse for me is that this pastor is someone we previously thought highly of

So was our local Monsignor, and naturally everyone was sorry to hear he'd gone back to Ireland to die of cancer. Except he didn't have cancer at all - he'd skipped ahead of the police who a renegade member of his flock had contacted

Needless to say that lady was thrown out of the church, and now the fuss has died down they keep inviting him back for major events, presumably in the hope many are too brainwashed to care (or maybe too worried to say anything)

I was brought up RC but haven’t practiced for a long time.
I see the problem as organised religion. Once you start to introduce hierarchies, power, wealth into religious practice it becomes a route for exploitation. People often men start to claim moral authority and the right to set rules. Often those rules match their internal prejudices and the original religious message gets interpreted to suit those prejudices. In some ways the position in Iran and Saudi Arabia is more honest - religion is a means of overt political and social control there.

There are many good, decent and moral religious people who do try to make the world a better place. However, Organised Religion is not a positive thing in my view.

Actually everyone thought highly of my F as well; respected former missionary and then language school director, and a saint for coping bravely with his Parkinson's Disease.

The truth about him was very different. As well as the SA, he was very controlling over all of us, including my DM. He was constantly accusing her of cheating. He was very emotionally abusive of her as well.

Thankfully, he's been dead for over 20 years.

It was telling, though, that when we spoke to people who had known us growing up, no one was at all shocked at the idea that my F had been a paedophile. Only my DM was shocked, but then he'd been very good at pulling the wool over her eyes. She did believe us, though, and was completely devastated.

These people make very good liars.

Most religions, especially the main ones, are founded on exploitation, fear and control. So it's no surprise their adherents turn a blind eye to anything they do wrong.

Similarly their only purpose is to keep hold of, and grow, the wealth and influence they've accumulated. So it's no surprise their leaders actively try to cover up or destroy anything that stands in their way.

The good done outweighs the localised abuses, and the Church endures, I guess.

And Jimmy Savile raised a lot of money for charity. There would be outrage if people suggested that outweighed the damage done by him.

I don't think the RC church will ever fundamentally change, due in part at a local level to the power of the parish priest. My PP is an absolute shit - I have first hand experience of his shitty behaviour, without outing myself can't elaborate.

Quite a lot parishioners have got the sum of him, but not one will challenge him because they believe he was put their by God and so on. Some have witnessed first hand his treatment of me and not one has challenged him. Great Christian behaviour all round.

He is fully aware of the power he yields which makes the whole thing corrupt and I would say WHO in your average parish is going to challenge and/ or report priest that they suspect of abuse ?

Jesus suggested that those who harm children should have a millstone put around their neck and be thrown into the sea.

Perhaps that would resolve the paedophile priest problem.

My PP is an absolute shit - he is fully aware of the power he yields which makes the whole thing corrupt and I would say WHO in your average parish is going to challenge and/ or report priest that they suspect of abuse?

Well I guess we might hope for some other local not under perverted control to speak up, but they've got to know about it first
And as we see so often, too many religious members - instead of acknowledging the horrors and demanding they're addressed - seek to minimise them or divert attention to something else

I find it hard to credit the mind control being so absolute that they'll even put their own children at risk in toeing the official line, but there you go

Well @Lauriemarlow and @Ohtherewearethen I advise you to re read my post.

Nowhere did I say I’ll give a free pass to the paedophile RC priests, or anyone else hiding in a dog collar.

I simply stated that research shows that most children are abused by their fathers, brothers, uncles and family friends, mostly male, and not by just those in religious orders.

To answer your incredibly hostile post about how I sleep well at night, as if I’m an apologist for abusers in the RC church, @Lauriemarlow, let me tell you, I sleep well at night because I’ve been working on the front lines of a national organisation dealing with CSA in Ireland for years and I do know the facts of who is abused by whom.

In 30 years we have never had a victim or survivor of sexual abuse committed by a person of any religious order cross our doors. We have seen and helped thousands and thousands and thousands of children abused by family members though.

Just in case you missed the point@LaurieMarlow, or*@Ohtherewearethen* I’m in NO way allowing the RC or any other religious or youth group to get off the hook of committing historic abuse and covering it up systematically by suggesting that the majority of abuses are committed by fathers, uncles, brothers, family friends and peers, mostly male.

As I’ve said in my previous post

It’s easy to turn a blind eye to what the neighbours are up to, easier still to block out what’s happening in your own family- it’s easier to think about those who are somehow different from you and outside society and to start flinging stones at them.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s a good place to start - historic abuse and that done by religious people, but it’s not the end of the story. It’s not as simple a picture as that, and research proves this

Results of peer reviewed published Research isn’t denying the lived experience of those abused by the priests, and those in dog collars of other religions, but it’s not the accurate story of the numbers of children abused by fathers, uncles, grandfathers, brothers, friends of the family, neighbours or leaders of other non religious youth and sporting groups (mostly male)

How does mentioning the majority of children subjected to child sexual abuse in any way diminish the experience of those who were abused by members of religious orders. It’s not either or. This isn’t a black lives matter issue. How callous of you to suggest the majority of children who survived sexual abuse don’t matter to you because they’re not in the right category. Shame on you @lauriemarlow

@Mittens030869 my heart goes out to you. I’m sorry you went through this and no doubt you know it wasn’t your fault what happened to you, but I thought I’d say it too - what happened to you when you were a child wasn’t your fault.
You have shown real courage by sharing with us what effects what your father did to you have had, and I hope you have support around you now.
I wish you all the very best in your healing journey. I know personally it’s not an easy road, and that you’re not alone. 💐

Good god, NellGwynsPenguin I’ve never read anything so defensive in my life. Mind you, I’m not surprised, given what you’re trying to defend.

Your use of that phrase to make light of people’s genuine, justified anger and fear actually disgusts me.

If you want to be taken seriously/sympathetically in future you need to choose your words much more carefully.

I stand by my assertion. I honestly don’t know how you sleep at night trying to distract from such depraved behaviour.

How callous of you to suggest the majority of children who survived sexual abuse don’t matter to you because they’re not in the right category. Shame on you @lauriemarlow**

I haven’t suggested anything remotely like that. How dare you?

@NellGwynsPenguin Thank you for your kind words. I've had a lot of therapy over the years, so I know that I have nothing to feel guilty about. (I still say 'sorry' too often, that's a habit that I'm finding hard to change.)

What I do struggle with is allowing friends and family members to get close to me. (My DH included sadly, I do better with my DDs.)

I think the debate here is very sad, though. Yes, far more children are abused by family members and neighbours and family friends. But churches aren't only guilty for actions committed by priests/church leaders/elders. They're guilty of covering up abuse within the church. There were people in the church who knew what my F was guilty of and covered it up.

And they're still covering up crimes of abuse now, like the friend I mentioned earlier, who was told that she shouldn't report the abuse her DD had been suffering at the hands of her stepfather, because it would bring shame on the church.

The biggest issue here is the role all churches have played in covering up abuse that they know about.

The biggest issue here is the role all churches have played in covering up abuse that they know about

And that's why it's so noticeable that this is hardly ever addressed in the replies. We're told - quite correctly - that abuse sadly exists within the wider community and that it involves more than just the catholic church, but the institutional cover ups are ignored

It is nothing like "all lives matter". It is about demonising ONE group and by doing that "othering" abusers. Not me, not MY father/ uncle brother; not MY religion, not MY organization, not MY culture.

SO you demonize one small sector and thus manage to virtue signal (I'm a good guy) whilst actually not wanting any whiff of abuse to taint your own doorstep.

We KNOW it goes on and we can only start to improve things if we are honest about it.

Christians might say 'Forgiveness'.

Christians might say 'Forgiveness'

They might indeed, but I think you'll find that for forgiveness there has to be repentance - and so far it's been noticeably absent among too many clerical abusers

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Once again, you've put it really well. There can't be forgiveness without repentance. And not just from the abusers, a lot of whom are dead (as is my F). There also needs to be repentance from those who have covered up abuse and discouraged victims from speaking out.

It's also not just about the past. It's about what's still happening. Because victims are still being told not to go to the police and report their abuse. If that continues, it means that there hasn't been any repentance.