What is the proper response to the abuses of the Catholic Church?

[intuitutifed]

I don't think anyone can deny the industrial scale of the abuses perpetrated by the Catholic Church, particularly on the most vulnerable. What absolutely staggers me is how the institution still exists in its current form at all? In Ireland alone, the throwing of the dead bodies of babies into a site previously used as a septic tank by the Bon Secours nuns should in my mind have caused the instutuoin to be outlawed and its assets to be seized and frozen. And that was one single incident n one country. What about the lives ruined, the children abused by priests who lectured others on personal morality??I am absolutely not advocating it but I am somewhat surprised there has not been large scale reprisals or assassination attempts on senior figures within the church. I cannot believe that the Pope has got away with mealy-mouthed expressions of regret. Why isn't he incandescent with fury and ordering national public enquiries throughout the world, defrocking and jailing priests who are convicted of abuse and dissolving the church?

@Nikki360

I am a catholic and I practice my faith. I will never condone or try to defend any of the awful things that happened. However child abuse is prevalent in all areas of life not just in the Catholic Church. It happened in football clubs and the fans still support the club?

Ah well that’s ok then

It's an interesting idea @OchonAgusOchonO, I'd be interested in reading any links you have. I have briefly googled but only come across:

The earliest English speakers were pagans, who worshipped many different gods and supernatural forces. Little is known about Anglo-Saxon pagan practices, and the evidence has to be pieced together from place-names and archaeological evidence. As far as we know, Anglo-Saxon pagans did not rely on written texts. Those writings that do describe pagan customs in the early Anglo-Saxon kingdoms were written by composed by churchmen, such as Bede (died 735). Bede’s descriptions of temples, priests and the various pagan gods seem to be based on Greco-Roman mythology, rather than first-hand experience of Anglo-Saxon paganism.

www.bl.uk/anglo-saxons/articles/religion-in-anglo-saxon-kingdoms

Which doesn't seem much help in determining the roles of women in the pagan religions practiced prior to the advent of Christianity. The rest I've read talks about Anglo Saxon society without stating which bits of it were carried over from prior to the introduction of Christianity. All I can see is that it was a rubbish time to be a woman (though, to be fair, that same could be said of both most of history and much of the modern world too).

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Anglo-Saxon_society#:~:text=Women%20had%20property%20rights%20and,%2C%20religious%20figures%2C%20and%20churches.

2% now so I may not be back on tonight. This phone tends to get to 1 and then give up immediately.

@FourPlasticRings - It's an interesting idea @OchonAgusOchonO, I'd be interested in reading any links you have. I have briefly googled but only come across:

Try Googling brehon law. That is well documented.

I'm not Roman Catholic - not anything actually (agnostic if you're asking) but my DH is RC and I think the leaders need to address this. Victims need redressing and given compensation/whatever they need

But I don't think the whole RC organisation is rotten

@FourPlasticRings - honestly, it seems like you're desperately trying to find something, anything you can hang on to as a positive of the Catholic church. They decided it was as bad for a man to be adulterous as a woman. They banned incest. Wow. What high standards you have.
We all deserve better. Including women and children who deserve not to be raped and molested. Gay people who deserve not to be made to feel shamed and wrong (when a staggering number of priests are raping boys). People in developing countries threatened with hell if they use birth control so they have baby after baby, born to die. Millions of women who had to endure fake periods each month just so the Catholic church wouldn't try to stop the pill becoming so widely available. This disgraceful institution has widely overstepped the mark for far too long and has long outstayed its welcome. It has no place in today's society.

To leave it and reject its nonsensical dogma.

@Nikki360

I am a catholic and I practice my faith. I will never condone or try to defend any of the awful things that happened. However child abuse is prevalent in all areas of life not just in the Catholic Church. It happened in football clubs and the fans still support the club?

You literally are trying to defend it!
'Yeah, so what, football clubs do it too...'

It gets worse; reading around this I just discovered the CC is issuing indulgences again ... in layman's terms you go to confession and then "contribute" something to be sure of earning a pardon

To be strictly fair they don't actually sell them any more since this was supposedly outlawed in the 17th century. Instead you do good works or contribute to charity - and those charities do, of course, include the church

I'd have thought they had enough money by now, but I guess all those legal/compensation fees must add up

www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/nyregion/10indulgence.html

Slightly more accessible article about the indulgences here:

content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1881152,00.html

The catholic church is a criminal organisation. From the lowest parish priest to the pope, it systematically covers up child abuse and rape. murder of children in Ireland born to unwed mothers and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in Africa due to the lies spread by bishops that condom do not protect against aids. Plus women who have died due to lack of abortion rights. And yet we still allow this organisation to run schools.

Indulgences haven't been sold for a very long time. In Reconciliation, we are given a penance for our confessed sins which could range from prayers, reflections about our attitude or behaviour or good works (not anything monetary) e.g. looking for opportunities to help someone who might need it. All very positive things. If you don't like a penance or feel that you can't do it, you can ask for a different one.

It's simply untrue that we ever have to give to any charity especially not if it is unaffordable in our individual circumstances. We are asked to be charitable in our time and efforts e.g through kindness. It helps our spiritual journey but we can't buy our way to Heaven.

Tbh I'd be surprised if the other main religious organisations don't have similar skeletons that just haven't come out yet.

Well, #metoochurch and #metoomosque were big hashtags a few years back to discuss abuse issues, as was #emptythepews which was mainly about discussing abuse and corrupt nepotism within American Evangelical movements, by both Evangelical and ex-Evangelical people. There have been abuse scandals within other faiths, though they tended to be smaller both due to numbers and less of them moved people around to other places.

Every organization has corruption and abuse, it takes a lot of careful consideration to prevent and remove it which many of these places haven't really tried. Many have suggested, much like the calls in the US for a police database so the violent cops can't be passed around from force to force (another issue of corruption) that there should be one for religious organizations. In general though, those in power need to be seen to be acting and they're really not and likely won't without enough social incentive from outside as well as people inside who won't handwave it away and ignore the rot.

The first thing should be firing and arresting every single person who helped cover it up, not just the abusers but the ones who made it possible and turned a blind eye.
Make sure a system is in place for reporting, no internal investigations, straight to the police and everyone made to hand over any evidence

That would be a start

In Scotland, mixing church with pagan life, it was customary for a couple to live together for a year and a day before getting married. None of this virgin bride rubbish.

Rome is built on the site of pagan worship: of a female god.

Look at what the Protestant church in Scotland did with killing women who weren't obedient enough in the Middle Ages. We still call them witches and make jokes about them. Many of them were midwives or women who had knowledge the church didn't approve of.

The proper response from individuals who are catholic is to carry out their faith in actions and leave the church behind. Giving the church money and listening to a man once a week (if that) don't make you a good person. Doing what you believe Jesus did (which seems barely relatable to the CC actually!) would surely be better.

And I'd say that of other denominations too.

There have been no where enough prosecutions against individuals in the church anywhere in the world (it seems to have been a "local" issue globally...).

Actually I think I also read about a trauma physiatrist in Boston who was shocked at the pressure used by the catholic church there against him and his trauma therapy institution because he testified that false memories are extremely rare: if people recollect any abuse asa child it almost always has basis in reality.

The response of the CC in covering up systemic institutional abuses has shown exactly what sort of institution it is.

Well, I’m hoping that the older people who are the bedrock of Irish Catholicism will, by the end of active anti-C19 measures, have simply got used to not attending church, and congregations will die off, as priests are. Only 15 seminarians started studying for the priesthood in Ireland last year, and the average Irish priest’s age is 70.

But people not just drifting along with baptising their children, and letting them make the first communion and confirmation etc ‘because everyone else is and they’ll feel left out’ — even though they themselves do not believe or practice — will make a far bigger difference. Despite Tuam, despite Savita Halavanappar, despite thousands of us trudging to England on the ferries for a termination, despite the laundries and the industrial schools, a lot of people still simply accept a cultural landscape which is shaped by Catholicism.

I think the idea that the Church was more than the abusers argument would work if it rigorously prosecuted and “owned” the abuseS it allowed - instead of covering them up.

In all institutions there are bad apples and rotten practices. It is up to those in charge, or those who know about abuse to speak up and root out the rot. That the church continues to shelter the abusers is what makes them unfit.

Oh, @Witchlight, I have had a version of that conversation with my mother about 7000 times.

@DaisyDreaming

The first thing should be firing and arresting every single person who helped cover it up, not just the abusers but the ones who made it possible and turned a blind eye. Make sure a system is in place for reporting, no internal investigations, straight to the police and everyone made to hand over any evidence

That would be a start

I don’t think anyone would be left! Even in February this year a priest was quoted ‘Pedophillia doesn’t kill any one but abortion does’

Of course the crimes were wicked. But there are thousands of faithful Catholics, clergy and laity who work tirelessly for the poorest, the most forgotten members of society all over the world. I will not let the wicked abuse of some, destroy the wonderful work and compassion shown of many, many others.

All churches don't you mean? We know it goes on. Maybe deal with the bigger picture and you would get a sea change. The factors at play are not exclusive to one religion

Not just the church. Nearly all abrahamic religions and other cults have a lot to answer for.

I really wish people would stop saying that if goes on everywhere, as if that makes it somehow less bad that it is rife in the Catholic church. This post is specifically about the Catholic church. Saying it happens elsewhere doesn't mean it's not happening within the Catholic church and doesn't need addressing. It's the 'all lives matter' idiocy again.

@Khadernawazkhan - But there are thousands of faithful Catholics, clergy and laity who work tirelessly for the poorest, the most forgotten members of society all over the world.

Yeah. Just like mother Theresa who felt that suffering was the best way to get to heaven so left people in pain and squalor despite having vast quantities of donations that were not used to alleviate the suffering. In contrast, she herald got the best of care whenever she was sick.

@Ohtherewearethen

I really wish people would stop saying that if goes on everywhere, as if that makes it somehow less bad that it is rife in the Catholic church. This post is specifically about the Catholic church. Saying it happens elsewhere doesn't mean it's not happening within the Catholic church and doesn't need addressing. It's the 'all lives matter' idiocy again.

This^^