To ask people to show a little more understanding to those not wearing masks

[Fuckinellitsme]

Apologies for another mask thread.

First of all, I'm not an 'anti masker', I absolutely see the need and the importance of wearing them. I'm unable to wear one myself - I have trigeminal neuralgia and when I've tried to wear one, the resulting attack has left me bedbound for days. I want to wear one, but I can't. I also have rheumatoid arthritis so I'm incredibly grateful to all the people who do wear masks, therefore protecting others and especially those in higher risk groups (though not vulnerable enough to be shielding) like me.

However. I've seen some truly awful comments on here in the last few days directed at those who don't wear masks. We should be treated like lepers if we enter a shop without one, for example, or should be banned from them outright. And we ought to stay at home if we are exempt, not use public transport or go shopping or go to work. We have 'made up' health issues and disabilities and are 'woe is me' 'snowflakes'. I've also encountered bus passengers passing comment and tutting about my lack of mask.

Those of us who can't wear a mask (and are acting within the law/guidelines, being exempt) still need to go about our business. It would be lovely if we could do so without fear of comment or judgement. I understand that there will be those who don't wear a mask because they just don't want to - however, please, if you see someone without a mask (particularly if they're wearing a sunflower/exempt lanyard) try to be understanding and give them the benefit of the doubt.

The nastiness and ableist comments on here (and elsewhere) in the past few days have been genuinely upsetting for those of us unable to wear masks. Please don't assume we're all stupid/selfish/conspiracy theorists/don't care about your health, or that it's a choice. For many, choice doesn't come into it.

A bit of empathy goes a long way, especially in these weird times.

no greater whingers about 'dictatorship' and 'control' than from those who live in a functioning democracy. If you say 'muzzle' you might as well have 'complete dick' tattoed across your forehead.

for those not able to wear a mask and therefore unable to access shops; the local support groups are still functioning. I'm part of one. If I were asked to do errands for someone who could not wear a mask (as opposed to a sillybitch who thinks it is all a conspiracy) then I would be happy to do so. Because I can and do wear a mask and so will be safer in shops, and will also keep everyone else safer.

It would be so much better if people stopped judging others and focussed on their own behaviour. This pandemic really has brought out the worst in some people.

I don't particularly want to wear a mask and won't wear one generally while outdoors but will wear one in shops because I've been asked to do so. I already wear one on public transport. I'm sure there will be people who don't wear masks, based on my experience so far on public transport, but that's none of my business as to why they are not wearing one. It's for the police to enforce if they want to, not me.

OP, I won't be judging you. It's none of my business.

[quote countrygirl99]@lweji sorry you said practical not sensible. That was just as shit[/quote]
Practical doesn't mean good (in fact, and as understatement, I did say it wasn't the best). But selective quote away at your pleasure.

@BrightYellowDaffodil

With respect, my employer has a duty of care to me at work which I will expect them to honour so, yes, I will expect them to uphold the law.

And you have every right to expect and demand that they do. What you don't have the right to do is expect and demand that people who aren't required by law to wear a mask do so, which appears to be what you're asking in your earlier posts.

I have sympathy for your situation but your rights have to be balanced with the rights of others.

It's not just about masks. It's about all of the precautions that people are expected to make. So, it will be law to wear masks in shops from 24th July and shops will have the power to enforce that. As I work in a shop I will expect my employer to enforce that law as they have a duty of care towards me. I will also expect them to enforce social distancing, again because they have a duty of care towards me and should take reasonable steps to keep me safe.

I also have a right to access health care safely and my disability would be covered under the Equality Act. How will hospitals fulfill that obligation to keep me as safe as possible if they don't enforce masks and social distancing or separate me from people who can't do either?

I'm already excluded from every premises where 1m+ is used. Not sure where the Equality Act is in this. You wouldn't legally be able to exclude a wheelchair user from every pub and restaurant for example.

Why WOULDN’T someone feel anxious and depressed about wearing a muzzle?
As it happens, they made muzzles for dogs compulsory here shortly before the masks were made compulsory. I took a picture of my dog and me in the bus with our masks. A couple of fellow travellers saw me take the picture and we all had a laugh at how ridiculous it was. That's the only way the comparison with muzzles strikes me - mildly amusing that now my dog and I are both wearing something to protect other people. When I put the mask on, I feel mildly hopeful that it might keep the transmission rate low. I understand that some people feel unhappy, but it's a big leap from that to "everyone feels unhappy".

Until there is absolutely no dispute over the efficacy of wearing a mask, all we have is justified belief! So in order to sidestep the pedants, I use the word belief, instead of knowledge. That in no way means I think people are wrong to believe it.

Ah, if we're going that way, it will never be undisputable.
In science, you can't prove something, just disprove it. So, we can never be sure that some new knowledge won't come out to disprove it.

By trying to sidestep the pedants you're being pedantic, while at the same time creating the false idea that it's all about belief and little or nothing about justified. This is what leads to people thinking that their own beliefs are worth the same as the beliefs of people who have actually acquired information about a subject, and have researched it, and have tested different hypothesis about it.
As a scientist, you bet I will trust any other scientist of a different field from mine about their own field, rather than any random member of the public.

This is another problem: threads advocating for the rights of disabled people get co-opted by the conspiracy theory anti-mask types.

With respect, my employer has a duty of care to me at work which I will expect them to honour so, yes, I will expect them to uphold the law.

But when I recommended you consult with a solicitor over you complaining that you were being forced to work in unsafe conditions despite being so unwell you can't even go into your own garden, you got upset with me. If you're being forced to endanger yourself then take it up with your employers, not ordinary members of the public who are doing the best they can to reduce risk to themselves and others.

if they don't enforce masks and social distancing or separate me from people who can't do either?

Your rights don't trump others' rights not to be disadvantaged because of their disabilities or conditions. As I said before, if you're going to expect the world to be made 100% safe for you, you're going to be waiting a long time because that isn't going to happen. There is only so much your employer can do before the rights of others are also being infringed. It has to be balanced but you're clearly not interested in that.

I have sympathy with your situation but, as other posters seem to have found, there is no reasoning with you because you seem to genuinely expect that the world will be made safe for you. It won't be and it never was.

As far as I am concerned you should only be allowed not wear one if you have a doctors letter, and that would need to be presented when entering a shop or a bus. Therefore anyone who didnt wear one would have proof of their reason not to have one and the judgement would go because you would know if someone wasnt wearing one that the reason was a real reason.

My judgement would come from the assumption that you are a person who simply doesnt want to wear one. It's a bit if a kick in the teeth when I am someone who STILL hasn't seen my family because of lockdown. We all made and continue to make sacrifices for the greater good, and someone just moaning and making up reasons that they cant wear a mask just seems ridiculous to me. So until actual enforcement comes in where proof is needed, those judgements will stay unfortunately. If I knew that to not wear one you had to have a valid medical cert, I would have no judgement.

@blurpityblurp

Whichoneofyoudidthat I am Asian, actually. The culture norms in many countries in SE Asia is totally different from the UK. For example Japanese culture hugely emphasises being respectful to others, there are huge taboos around things like yawning, eating on the street, etc. People cover their mouths when speaking on a mobile phone. It’s just a completely different culture to Europe.

China is an oppressive regime. Even so, they only started debating making mask-wearing a legal requirement a few months ago, and HK (where I briefly lived) ran into trouble because they actually passed a law last year making non-medical masks illegal as a way to oppress protest.

Some of those countries have a pretty terrible record of disability right, and you don’t see many disabled people because they are more restricted than in the UK. So you can’t compare oranges and apples. But even those countries with mask laws have exemptions for those who medically can’t wear masks.

None of that means people here wear masks due to social conditioning. Least of all HK where I’ve raised my kids for 8 years and where I’m perfectly aware of different cultural norms. I’m a bit exasperated with the ‘asians are compliant’ ‘asians wear masks because they just do’. HKers can think for themselves, they stand up and shout, loudly, when they need to. they’ve experienced a pandemic. We can learn from them.

I’m not sure what you mean about comparing apples and oranges. I’ve heard of no expat (and the vast vast majority are western) whine about masks like MNetters do.

Sounds like you’d want them presented to you @SqidgeBum!

And I k ow your comment was a few pages back but I agree entirely @SockYarn

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, Whichoneofyoudidthat, or what the relevance is to disabled people being shamed and attacked for not being able to wear masks.

How many people in HK do you know who have medical conditions/disabilities which mean they can't wear masks?

I will not wear a mask.

I will wear a visor in situations where the law says I have to wear a face covering.

Should I expect Judgey McJudgeyPants to have a problem with that?

@blurpityblurp

This is another problem: threads advocating for the rights of disabled people get co-opted by the conspiracy theory anti-mask types.

With respect, my employer has a duty of care to me at work which I will expect them to honour so, yes, I will expect them to uphold the law.

But when I recommended you consult with a solicitor over you complaining that you were being forced to work in unsafe conditions despite being so unwell you can't even go into your own garden, you got upset with me. If you're being forced to endanger yourself then take it up with your employers, not ordinary members of the public who are doing the best they can to reduce risk to themselves and others.

You told me to consult with a solicitor regarding benefits.

And strangely enough, my life isn't just about work (though thanks to Covid it's not that much else). If I need to go on public transport, which I do need to do to get to hospital appointments, my employer won't be of any help. Maybe you have suggestions for that too?

As for too unwell to go in my garden - that was only ever about proximity to my neighbour and their illicit get together a at the height of lockdown (and shielding). I've never claimed to be too unwell to go in the garden. Just that their "gatherings" and the size and layouts of our gardens meant that I couldn't be more than two metres away from them. But then you know that. Maybe it's just another example of you being supportive?

@SqidgeBum

As far as I am concerned you should only be allowed not wear one if you have a doctors letter, and that would need to be presented when entering a shop or a bus. Therefore anyone who didnt wear one would have proof of their reason not to have one and the judgement would go because you would know if someone wasnt wearing one that the reason was a real reason.

My judgement would come from the assumption that you are a person who simply doesnt want to wear one. It's a bit if a kick in the teeth when I am someone who STILL hasn't seen my family because of lockdown. We all made and continue to make sacrifices for the greater good, and someone just moaning and making up reasons that they cant wear a mask just seems ridiculous to me. So until actual enforcement comes in where proof is needed, those judgements will stay unfortunately. If I knew that to not wear one you had to have a valid medical cert, I would have no judgement.

I'm not 'making up reasons' and neither are millions like me.

Rather than assuming we're all selfish chancers, why not assume we're disabled/have health issues? It's not a huge leap.

Doctors won't be issuing exemption notes, so please, exercise a little compassion and tolerance and don't judge disabled people as feckless and stupid. We've had to put up with that since time immemorial.

OP my only knowledge of TN comes from a friend who suffered from it. Nerve pain is excruciating. It must be hard for you to bear.

I am also in a high risk category and I have been appalled by some of the comments I have read on MN with regard to people like us. There have been a lot of ageist and disablist comments. I don't think Coronavirus has brought out the best in England. There are so many armchair epidemiologists out there. People don't think the rules apply to them, they ignore social distancing, personal needs trump those of the community. But I have also seen a lot of kindness and thoughtfulness so this outweighs the nastiness and selfishness I have seen.
I have learned about self care. When it all gets too much for me I stop looking at MN, I avoid the news and concentrate on something that gives me pleasure like reading, listening to music or phoning family or friends. I find meditation helps. There are loads on Youtube. I focus of the Loving Kindness ones.

So OP ignore the comments. Shut them out. Practise self care. You can't wear a mask because of health issues. This is allowed. Just go about your day and look after yourself.

I’m going to wear a mask because I can but will not be bothered about what anyone else does or need to see proof they are exempt, like a non twat.

Of course not @PablosHoney, but considering I am an at risk person who still has to work (teacher) and go about my life, it would be nice to know that processes have been put in place when I see someone who isnt wearing a mask, and is therefore putting me and my unborn baby at risk, to ensure those who cannot wear a mask dont have to, but those who can do have to. Considering the amount of people who are outraged at wearing a piece of material because it 'impinges on their human rights', I am sure those with genuine conditions would like to be able to prove they arent one of these moaners

Rather than assuming we're all selfish chancers, why not assume we're disabled/have health issues? It's not a huge leap.

Because lots of people like to see the worst in others and have zero critical thinking skills?

Urgh, posters who call a mask a muzzle - we could only be so lucky!

Ah well @Lweji we can certainly agree to disagree there. Scientists voraciously research and aim to find conclusions within minute margins of discrepancy. However, sometimes people from other fields trip and fall over the answers that others have been seeking for decades. It's just not the case that the beliefs of scientists are any more important than the beliefs of anybody else. No beliefs are more important, some are just closer to 'truth' on a scale that we don't get to see very often. And by explaining that I see the beliefs as justified, I am doing everything I can to ensure people understand that I am not belittling their feelings or beliefs. So no fight from me today

Why should they have to @SqidgeBum

@Fuckinellitsme I think you have read my comment wrong. I WANT people with genuine conditions to be able not to wear a mask, but with the amount if moaners out there, until a proper process is in place to prove that, those moaners will be the reason people will judge. Its not me you should be annoyed at. It's those who wont wear them but dont have a reason. They are your problem, not those going about their day trying their best to keep those around them safe. I think you are directing your anger at the wrong people here.

Your rights don't trump others' rights not to be disadvantaged because of their disabilities or conditions.

So do their rights mean that I should be disadvantaged because of my disabilities and conditions then? More than that, does it mean they have the right to put my life at risk?

That's essentially what you are arguing - the ops right to have an adjustment made for her condition over rides my rights to have adjustments made for my condition. Who says which disability is more important? In instances such as these there is a complete conflict of interests.

As I said before, if you're going to expect the world to be made 100% safe for you, you're going to be waiting a long time because that isn't going to happen.

And I've said I don't expect this to happen.

I have sympathy with your situation

No you don't