To ask people to show a little more understanding to those not wearing masks

[Fuckinellitsme]

Apologies for another mask thread.

First of all, I'm not an 'anti masker', I absolutely see the need and the importance of wearing them. I'm unable to wear one myself - I have trigeminal neuralgia and when I've tried to wear one, the resulting attack has left me bedbound for days. I want to wear one, but I can't. I also have rheumatoid arthritis so I'm incredibly grateful to all the people who do wear masks, therefore protecting others and especially those in higher risk groups (though not vulnerable enough to be shielding) like me.

However. I've seen some truly awful comments on here in the last few days directed at those who don't wear masks. We should be treated like lepers if we enter a shop without one, for example, or should be banned from them outright. And we ought to stay at home if we are exempt, not use public transport or go shopping or go to work. We have 'made up' health issues and disabilities and are 'woe is me' 'snowflakes'. I've also encountered bus passengers passing comment and tutting about my lack of mask.

Those of us who can't wear a mask (and are acting within the law/guidelines, being exempt) still need to go about our business. It would be lovely if we could do so without fear of comment or judgement. I understand that there will be those who don't wear a mask because they just don't want to - however, please, if you see someone without a mask (particularly if they're wearing a sunflower/exempt lanyard) try to be understanding and give them the benefit of the doubt.

The nastiness and ableist comments on here (and elsewhere) in the past few days have been genuinely upsetting for those of us unable to wear masks. Please don't assume we're all stupid/selfish/conspiracy theorists/don't care about your health, or that it's a choice. For many, choice doesn't come into it.

A bit of empathy goes a long way, especially in these weird times.

I do, however, understand that for some people wearing a mask could be a very real problem and I don't wish to judge them or behave like an arse

This, all people need to do is ensure they are doing all they can to fulfil the guidelines. That's it. The government has certainly not bestowed us with powers of judgment and condemnation. So we do our bit refrain from being judgemental arses towards others as we don't know them and are not entitled to know the ins and outs of their lives just so we can throw the book at them.
The enforcement needs to be left to those with the authority to do so.

@ravenmum

So what will you do, Fuckinellitsme, would you wear a badge saying "MASK EXEMPTION" or something, and just point at it if anyone gives you the evils?

I wore a sunflower lanyard on the bus yesterday but still got tuts and comments. I suppose they're not widely understood. I've seen ones which have 'mask exempt' printed on them but they're available for anyone to buy, so I'm not sure if they'd be taken in good faith. Nonetheless I think I'll order one later and hope for the best!

and I don't wish to judge them or behave like an arse

This is it in a nutshell. Lots of people can't WAIT to judge people and behave like an arse.

In FACT, it should be
Entertain the REMOTE HYPOTHESIS that "the science" might be wrong.

Not "the fact".

@BrightYellowDaffodil

And I'll accept

With respect, the world doesn't revolve around what you as an individual want.

With respect, my employer has a duty of care to me at work which I will expect them to honour so, yes, I will expect them to uphold the law.

Also, you have to remember that this is not the same as requiring a seat or a parking space when leaving the house. People who are anxious about others not wearing masks are anxious about their OWN health. This is something that directly affects them, even if it turns out later that wearing a mask does shit all. For now, people believe that seeing someone walk past them without a mask could potentially kill them. So it's worth having some compassion for both sides.

I still think those making nasty comments here are dicks though.

If not in a mask. then you need to live by 2m distancing

This of course means 1m+ places are closed to you

But millions of us have already found out, there are things you would otherwise be doing that become closed to you during pandemic restrictions

YANBU OP. I was on that thread yesterday and some of the comments were disgusting.

People with disabilities and 'underlying health conditions' have been shat on and shat on and shat on throughout this pandemic.

www.law.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-02-affront-dignity-inclusion-and-equality-coronavirus-and-impact-law-policy-practice

The Equality Act has not been cancelled because of coronavirus.

People have become utterly, insanely fixated on masks as The Thing

It doesn't seem 5 minutes since anyone who said they would not be downloading the dodgy NHSX app was being called a murdering bastard. That went well.

The evidence around cloth face coverings is that by catching the droplets from the wearer they can potentially reduce the spread of the virus somewhat in situations where people cannot physically distance. That's for 3 layer, well fitted face coverings, not the stretched, single layer bit of sock or the thin gappy bandana that our government appears happy for people to wear.

They are a useful adjunct to all the other measures, and everyone who CAN wear one should do so, but on their own they will not save you or prevent a second wave.

The government has said some people will be exempt from wearing them and that no proof will be required. If you don't like that then take it up with your MP. You have no right to know someone's medical history so you can decide if they have a good enough excuse.

There is no evidence that face coverings make any difference in situations where people can physically distance so if you see someone without a mask and it bothers you, how about you just stay the fuck out of their way and leave them alone.

@Lweji it is a fact that the science could be wrong. That is always a fact. There's a remote hypothesis that it is wrong. It's not a question that it could be wrong.

If I saw someone not wearing a mask next week I'd assume there is a good reason to not I wouldn't tut and huff and tell people.
Just wear a mask unless you have a reason why not and assume the same for others and keep out of what others are doing.
It's the same at the beginning when it was 1 exercise a day people take things to the extreme and want some sort of medal for being a good citizen and jump up and down with glee because they saw carol from number 10 go out twice .
Seriously get a grip !!

Misslo well put. I agree.

As for this; masks are about control. This is only going to get worse

Stop getting off on the idea you're in an episode of Black Mirror. It's silly.

Masks are about control. Controlling the spread of CV.

@ Lweji. No it's not sensible advice its disablist, judgemental shit and is definitely posted in that vein.

Please quote me where I said it was sensible.
I said it wasn’t written as an insult.

They've been compulsory here on trams/buses since the end of April. I travel often and have seen the odd person not wearing one at all. Two looked like they were rough sleepers or something. A couple of people looked like they had forgotten one, and were pulling their jacket over their face. No-one said anything to these people. One man sat with his hand over his face the whole time, apparently instead of a mask. He then stood up and used the same hand to touch the seats and handrail. Another bloke came up then and gave him a bit of a rant! That's the only time I've seen anyone get told off though.

@LangClegsInSpace

YANBU OP. I was on that thread yesterday and some of the comments were disgusting.

People with disabilities and 'underlying health conditions' have been shat on and shat on and shat on throughout this pandemic.

www.law.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-02-affront-dignity-inclusion-and-equality-coronavirus-and-impact-law-policy-practice

The Equality Act has not been cancelled because of coronavirus.

People have become utterly, insanely fixated on masks as The Thing

It doesn't seem 5 minutes since anyone who said they would not be downloading the dodgy NHSX app was being called a murdering bastard. That went well.

The evidence around cloth face coverings is that by catching the droplets from the wearer they can potentially reduce the spread of the virus somewhat in situations where people cannot physically distance. That's for 3 layer, well fitted face coverings, not the stretched, single layer bit of sock or the thin gappy bandana that our government appears happy for people to wear.

They are a useful adjunct to all the other measures, and everyone who CAN wear one should do so, but on their own they will not save you or prevent a second wave.

The government has said some people will be exempt from wearing them and that no proof will be required. If you don't like that then take it up with your MP. You have no right to know someone's medical history so you can decide if they have a good enough excuse.

There is no evidence that face coverings make any difference in situations where people can physically distance so if you see someone without a mask and it bothers you, how about you just stay the fuck out of their way and leave them alone.

Because in some situations that's impossible.

Teachers in school for example.

On crowded public transport.

And yes the Equality Act still applies, including towards people who are currently shielding but will be unshielded on 1st August. We also have rights and are protected by the Equality Act.

I wore a sunflower lanyard on the bus yesterday but still got tuts and comments.
I've only heard of these as they came up on another thread here which also established that no, lots of people don't know what they mean!

For now, people believe that seeing someone walk past them without a mask could potentially kill them

For those of us shielding, then this isn’t just a belief, it’s what the best medical evidence is telling us. And the importance of acting on that best medical evidence and advice which flows from it. has been much championed on this thread

We’re still not fully out and about. We know we will be called back behind shields if cases rise

We already are facing life unsupported by benefits (charities are campaigning, but if your workplace isn’t Covid-safe basically you’re stuffed. And if someone else’s reasons like adjustment is no PPE/face covering, then we’re stuffed.

@Lweji

What if we were wrong about wearing masks. Entertain the fact that "the science" might be wrong.

That's what governments have been doing. That's what I do every day. And that's what I try to teach my students to do.

If masks are the right thing to do, we save lifes and enable the economy to recover and people to regain more normal lives without going into lockdown.
If masks are not the right thing to do, people will have spent a bit of money and will have been a little inconvenienced (most), numbers will rise a bit again and more protective measures will have to be implemented.
If no masks, then numbers will still rise again, and we have to choose between lockdowns and deaths.

The chances of science being wrong are not 50-50, though.
That's why it's science. Not a guessing game.
Science relies on logic and testing, so the chances of science being wrong when support is shown for something are pretty low.
That's how we trust planes to fly and medicine to work. The chances of the science behind it being wrong are pretty low.

Who does the research? Who funds it? We try to eliminate bias but it can be difficult to completely eradicate it.

m0therofdragons
I just can’t help wondering what happened during ww2. The disabilities must have existed then so did people refuse to wear gas masks during the blitz and die?

Using events that never happend in WW2 to have a go at disabled people today. Just when you think you've seen it all...

@SmileyClare

Misslo well put. I agree.

As for this; masks are about control. This is only going to get worse

Stop getting off on the idea you're in an episode of Black Mirror. It's silly.

Masks are about control. Controlling the spread of CV.

Control of covid. You think things are just going to go back to normal then? If it was as dangerous as they say wouldn't we all be naturally behind doors scared and wearing masks?

@iVampire

For now, people believe that seeing someone walk past them without a mask could potentially kill them

For those of us shielding, then this isn’t just a belief, it’s what the best medical evidence is telling us. And the importance of acting on that best medical evidence and advice which flows from it. has been much championed on this thread

We’re still not fully out and about. We know we will be called back behind shields if cases rise

We already are facing life unsupported by benefits (charities are campaigning, but if your workplace isn’t Covid-safe basically you’re stuffed. And if someone else’s reasons like adjustment is no PPE/face covering, then we’re stuffed.

Well done for explaining the principles of shielding so well.

With respect, my employer has a duty of care to me at work which I will expect them to honour so, yes, I will expect them to uphold the law.

And you have every right to expect and demand that they do. What you don't have the right to do is expect and demand that people who aren't required by law to wear a mask do so, which appears to be what you're asking in your earlier posts.

I have sympathy for your situation but your rights have to be balanced with the rights of others.

@lweji sorry you said practical not sensible. That was just as shit

@iVampire I hope my comment didn't upset you, I wasn't saying people believe it when it isn't true. As a former philosophy student I had it drummed into my head that 'knowledge' is a 'justified, true belief'. Until there is absolutely no dispute over the efficacy of wearing a mask, all we have is justified belief! So in order to sidestep the pedants, I use the word belief, instead of knowledge. That in no way means I think people are wrong to believe it.

[quote WhatCFeryIsThis]@Lweji it is a fact that the science could be wrong. That is always a fact. There's a remote hypothesis that it is wrong. It's not a question that it could be wrong. [/quote]
In that sense, the science is always wrong. At least to some, even if infinitesimal small, extent.

We always try to estimate the extent to which each finding could be wrong, and why.

It's not how the pp meant it, though.