What’s the problem with Trans?

[Karenista]

Posting for traffic:
Can someone please take the time to explain to me what the issue is with trans women? Or trans rights in general?

I consider myself a feminist, but since reading all the posts about publicly ‘coming out as GC’, I now feel... almost... not feminist enough because I believe in trans rights.

Where’s the middle ground? Or am I now going to feel alienated from ‘GC feminists?’

It is sad that your nephew was suicidal because other people at school would not go along with how he viewed himself. If that makes him suicidal then I rather think the problem lies not with skirts and pronouns but with what his sexist environment is teaching him about what it is to be a man.

It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

My problem is that as a biological female I’m expected to give up some of my rights to give them theirs. I have the attitude of, just because your not happy with your biological gender don’t try and take away from mine.
The fact that there are young girls in this country having to share toilets with boys during their awkward puberty stage is actually disgusting. If my daughter had to wash blood off her hands in front of 16 year old boys that head teacher would be getting their arse handed to them!

We can support gender non-conforming little boys without pretending that biological sex has disappeared and without blocking trans people from being gender non-comforming. In fact we'd rejoice, shout it to the rooftops, dig out our 1980's gender bending clothes and make up and go out on the razz to celebrate!

Not conforming to gender stereotypes is the very essence of all feminism. Whether you want equality or liberation, whatever your wave, or lack thereof, gender ideology is one of the things you instinctively rail against.

It is the box that makes women 'lesser than'.

No matter what tautology TRAs use to twist that round, it is the very essence of what GC women the world over are trying to eradicate.

So take your pink spangles and give them to the person who wants them, male, female, gender bending, out for a day or non binary ANYONE!

Find a few average, normal, every day trans people then, maybe Paris Lee's bit of a controversial marmite person then, insert trans person of choice.

May I suggest Miranda Yardley.

There are levels to this argument. You are typing that at a lot of wmen who have, online and in real life, been told to shut up, die in a grease fore, suck my lady dick, for trying to have that very discussion.

It behoves you to understand that before you decry GC posters here.

@Chicchicchicchiclana

I wish Mumsnet could just stop hosting threads like this now. The question has been answered a thousand times already! Why can't it be locked and a list of all the previous similar threads and their answers be linked?

There have been a thousand threads about the first time the boyfriend hits you. The advice is always broadly the same. Shall we ban people from asking and engaging?

I see tell me about your cheeky fuckers threads every few months. Shall we stop that too?

Debate is important in life even if the same arguments are rehashed again and again. That's how most ideas are elaborated, honed, adopted and even discarded. Most people don't have fixed unchanging views. Most people want to talk about things bothering them.

You don't have to read every MIL thread, you don't have to read every meal plans for allergies thread and you don't have to read every women's rights thread. Other people can still read and engage anew though.

Witchcraftandhokum I apologise, I do know that you mentioned that your relative did not ask for access to the changing rooms.

I should have made it clear that I wasn't specifically referring to your relative with regards to accessing changing rooms. It was the suicide attempt that I was referring to, and the fact that teenage suicide attempts are not solely related to pronouns.

That's another big name though? Isn't that a GC view trans person?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
I meant average voices, BOTH sides of the "discussion" for a balanced view and not an echo chamber

That was to Titchy

Lemonade - if you can’t see the problem that the first two trans women named on here have both shown enjoyment in being sexually objectified by men, it shows how unconsidered your thoughts on the debate are.

If someone is suggesting following a TRA trans celebrity then surely it makes sense to recommend also following a GC trans celebrity.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

That's another big name though? Isn't that a GC view trans person? Correct me if I'm wrong. I meant average voices, BOTH sides of the "discussion" for a balanced view and not an echo chamber

Great idea! Can you suggest any forums where trans people with no agenda and perhaps differing views from other trans people post?

Well, that answered my question
Is Miranda Yardley GC? Because if so you miss my point, to step away from an echo chamber and get both "sides", views

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

Well, that answered my question Is Miranda Yardley GC? Because if so you miss my point, to step away from an echo chamber and get both "sides", views

I have been on Twitter for years and years and I have heard plenty from trans women, TRAs, intersectional feminists and plain old left wing woke misogynists. And I disagree strongly with what they say.

Have I educated myself sufficiently? Or am I not considered knowledgeable until I have changed my mind?

I am very much not an echo chamber person.

I wasn't commenting on the individuals but your statement around not choosing another celebrity. People like following celebs. Anyway you can't go round following ordinary people demanding they educate you. You've no idea what they believe anyway. They could be right loons. With a celeb you have a body of past public appearances to read up and the celeb would be pleased you did it.

I'm talking about the level of hatred, by sheeple who decide they're TERF's with absolutely no experience of the lives of trans-people

This implies that if everyone with concerns about female sex based needs and rights being harmed just listened more to trans people, they would gladly stop caring about females and their needs and see harm to females as justifiable collateral damage.

Yes, TW currently use female spaces. The issues for females with this is well documented. If you are lucky and privileged enough in your life that you can use mixed sex spaces without difficulty then I'm very happy for you. But if you care about social justice, inclusion, diversity, intersectionality and kindness.... you are going to have to care too about the females who quietly turn and leave when they find a male bodied person present in the toilet, or the female people whose faith, race, culture, disability, trauma, history of rape or DV, means they cannot access a mixed sex space. You are going to have to care too about the females who will not accept health care if they are not allowed a female only hcp. You are going to have to care too about the female people who won't stay on a ward, vulnerable and ill in a bed a few spaces away from someone they perceive as male. You are going to have to care about the female who stays in a violent, dangerous home or lives rough (as one MNetter does) because refuges insist she must put aside her trauma in order to validate a male who identifies as a woman and wants to use a female refuge instead of the male ones. You are going to have to care that it is a problem to exclude and turn away vulnerable females from any service or provision in order to provide males with more choice and better wellbeing.

Otherwise you are a raging hypocrite who doesn't hold those values at all, but merely sees male people as intrinsically more valuable than female ones.

I think I recall reading Paris' article in Vice about how it was okay for Fallon Fox (born man who transitioned to live as a woman in adulthood) to fight against born women in competitive Mixed Martial Arts tournaments. Came across it by accident hrough a reddit martial arts forum, aksherly. Let me tell you, the men on that forum were disgusted.

Contained really nauseating phrasing about how she was a lover not a fighter herself but she was sure female fighters and Fallon would be fighting on equal terms in the upcoming bouts, IIRC.

On these grounds I cannot call Paris very moderate!

The very fact we now have the term Cis female sums it up (how often do we hear cis male by comparison). There is nothing wrong with being trans but it is not the same as being biologically male or female. It is a separate 3rd/4th group. Someone who changes genders cannot have the same experience (both for good and bad) as someone of the biological sex.

Because if so you miss my point, to step away from an echo chamber and get both "sides", views But we do ge that here.

You are posting, others who are not GC, believe TWAW etc are posting. TRAs are probably posting.

Because nobody is silenced here, uness they trip over the daft rules that make us all twist and twirl and mind our language so as not to be banned. Those had to be put place to stop the avalanche of TRA non members who arrived and complained bitterly, loudly, aggressively.

If you feel you have been posted into silence it is often because youur point is not taken, disagreed with, not liked. That's called other people's opinions.

And you can be all agreeable sounding, oh, hear both sides. But your choices of relevant voices, your use of "sides" your determination that we can't know what we speak of beacsue we perists in disgreeing with you tells a different story.

You'd have to be very determined to continue as you do. I think of you very much as a nematode, as used by organic gardeners... an irritating little beast that is vital to continued growth!

@isabellerossignol caster semenya is NOT male. How utterly ignorant. Clearly you know nothing about the science and medicine of sex.

@Karenista I am not going to even bother reading the comments you have received (thank you to all of you who have posted helpful comments though) as so many times when this is discussed I end up disappointed by the misinformation and transphobia that can be displayed.

You CAN be a feminist and include trans women. Trans women ARE women.

Do you believe in equal rights for EVERYBODY? Do you believe that people should be respected and treated how you would like to be treated yourself with equality and kindness?

There is no middle ground. You are a feminist as am I.

[quote Bizawit]@isabellerossignol caster semenya is NOT male. How utterly ignorant. Clearly you know nothing about the science and medicine of sex.[/quote]
So Caster Semenya doesn't have XY chromosomes then?

I thought medically she had been assigned female at birth and tossed female but biologically she had XY chromosomes which meant she had some male characteristics and hormones?