What’s the problem with Trans?

[Karenista]

Posting for traffic:
Can someone please take the time to explain to me what the issue is with trans women? Or trans rights in general?

I consider myself a feminist, but since reading all the posts about publicly ‘coming out as GC’, I now feel... almost... not feminist enough because I believe in trans rights.

Where’s the middle ground? Or am I now going to feel alienated from ‘GC feminists?’

Trans women already use women’s spaces!!!!

Well they fucking shouldn't!!!!!!!!

P.S. I'm very left-wing, so I'm following this person on twitter to stop my twitter turning into an echo chamber.

Dr Jane Crofton MEng

@OnCroft

15 yrs post op married trans woman. Ex Royal Air Force. Served in 1st Gulf War and Former Yugoslavia. Computer Science expert. Tech Entrepreneur. Tory

and this one:

a transwoman of colour:
Blackberry_tran

OP, you'll get mostly one-sided replies here. Not sure what you're looking for, but I find discussions around trans women on MN infuriating so I don't usually engage.

Witchcraftandhokum as a teenager I self harmed and made suicide attempts because I hated having breasts. I'm in my 40s now and still have scars on my breasts where I slashed them with a knife when I had a sudden realisation aged 14 that I was stuck with them for life.

If a male student had been allowed to do PE with me because he was now a boy that would have been extremely damaging for me. I'm guessing girls like me still exist in 2020. Should they just crack on with self harming because their feelings matter less? Because that's certainly the message I hear every day.

Yeah, it's amazing how women agreeing is seen as being one sided

@midgebabe

Rufus, I don't think they think that at all, they just want people to believe it

Yeah

You’re probably right there

Really? This again.

Really? This again.

@MolyHolyGuacamole

OP, you'll get mostly one-sided replies here. Not sure what you're looking for, but I find discussions around trans women on MN infuriating so I don't usually engage.

I guess I was looking for clarification on a viewpoint which is different to my own. I’ve appreciated the responses and now have links on which to further educate myself on alternative viewpoints.

@Mrskeats

Really? This again.

Thats quite ironic

OP, you'll get mostly one-sided replies here. Not sure what you're looking for, but I find discussions around trans women on MN infuriating so I don't usually engage.

And yet here you are, on another trans thread. Weird, huh?

@midgebabe

Yeah, it's amazing how women agreeing is seen as being one sided

Yes indeed. If the vast majority agree, they're bullies ganging up, it's an echo chamber, no one has thought it through, therefore their views should be dismissed.

And if there isn't agreement then you're speaking for a minority so your views should be dismissed.

If someone could clarify what women should do to have their views considered as valid, I'd love to hear it.

I said it was off top of my head.
As my teen would say "it ain't that deep"
Care to proffer any other trans people names then?
As my point still stands.
Get a balanced view, not just a MN one, both sides, NOT extremists.
Find a few average, normal, every day trans people then, maybe Paris Lee's bit of a controversial marmite person then, insert trans person of choice.

@Witchcraftandhokum

The problem here is the argument is so definite. Because a minority of people will want to access prisons, refuges etc all trans rights should be eradicated. All my nephew (now niece) wanted was to wear a girls school uniform and be reffered to by her chosen pronouns. She was told this couldn't happen.

This is a total failure of assertion reason.

A minority of bad people want access to vulnerable people. Yes. In many contexts.

Because of this all trans rights should be eradicated? You what? No of course not. Unless you mean the right to make everyone act as if your beliefs are truth even when they objectively are not. No, that's not a human right. Nor a trans right.

Your nephew wanted to wear girl's clothes to school but was not allowed. The world is sexist. That's bad. Most here would welcome more gender neutral uniforms in most uniformed contexts.

It is sad that your nephew was suicidal because other people at school would not go along with how he viewed himself. If that makes him suicidal then I rather think the problem lies not with skirts and pronouns but with what his sexist environment is teaching him about what it is to be a man.

The two things are not in conflict. We can support gender non-conforming little boys without pretending that biological sex has disappeared and without blocking trans people from being gender non-comforming.

Trans women also often compete in women’s sport. As do intersex women. The discrimination that exists against female athletes who’s bodies don’t conform to the expectations of people with tyrannical notions of sex is appalling; e.g. what happened to Caster Semenya. oooooooooooh! One of those!

Yes, we know transwomen do. I was going with the possibility you were here in earnest. But as you cannot look at those photos and be hinest, I'll have to just let you continue to rattle on in your own dishonest way!

Intersex women? You'll have to define your terms there. DSD is chromsomal issue. All parties are either male or female. And repreentative organisations have asked that people like you stop using DSD to suport your trans arguments. They are not trans, not hermaphrodite, intersex or any other quaint and old fashioned term.

And Caster Semenya is a man. A man with DSD. Raised and socialised as a female, but a man! Look at any picture of Caster Semenya as an adult. Man. Look at the publicly available medical records within sport. Man. And it is not fucking tyrannical to say so. It took over a decade to get to the point where the scientific studies the IOC and other international sporting bodies ordered came back woth some hard and reliable science.

Look up my posting history. You'll see I took a lot of bashing for stnding up for Semenya and advicating waiting for the last round of reliable science to be concluded. I still think his/her life jjourney has been harder than anyone can imagine. But, he is a man and should stop pretending otherwise now he knows the truth!

I should say here that I am by training and a couple of decades of FE / HE lecturing an ex sport physiologist! So please, don't insult my intellignce with any flummery in return!

Find a few average, normal, every day trans people then, maybe Paris Lee's bit of a controversial marmite person then, insert trans person of choice. No. YOU need to do that. If you use someone as a case in point, that really is on you! If you can't find one that meets your needs then, well, just don't name anyone!

IsabelleRossignol You'll see from my post that my niece did not request access to the PE changing rooms or toilets. This is my problem, on here trans people are all lumped together as wanting the same thing. Access can be broken down and requests can be looked at individually. Banning trans women from prisons, shouldn't mean that a transgender student shouldn't be allowed to wear a skirt. We can look at third spaces. There are levels to this argument.

she didn't want to use the female charging rooms, toilets etc.. The school offered her the disabled facilities to use which she was happy to.

Fair enough - apologies. I didn't read your post properly. However there are lots who allow trans children to use showers, changing rooms etc of their choice with no consideration of the feelings of the other children using those facilities.

I wonder what your thoughts are on that?

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

I said it was off top of my head. As my teen would say "it ain't that deep" Care to proffer any other trans people names then? As my point still stands. Get a balanced view, not just a MN one, both sides, NOT extremists. Find a few average, normal, every day trans people then, maybe Paris Lee's bit of a controversial marmite person then, insert trans person of choice.

Kristina Harrison, Fionne Orlander, Rose of Dawn, Miranda Yardley, Debbie Hayton are trans women from a variety of backgrounds.

Any one of them would be more educational than Paris Lees.

@mnhq can this please be moved to ‘feminism’ as I think that’s a better place for it. Thanks.

[quote Karenista]@titchy I’m not sure why the FWR boards are, but would you prefer I ask for the thread to be moved?[/quote]
No I don't mind it being here at all!

Thank you for reading and engaging.