Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Drag, drag, drag....

501 replies

Yarboosucks · 14/07/2020 14:43

I have never been a particularly sensitive or active feminist, but all this drag rubbish on TV is getting to me. How at a time when rightly you could not broadcast in black face or similar is it OK to mock or at best caricature women so ridiculously?

OP posts:
Notimeforaname · 19/08/2020 20:16

So many typos there sorry!

Notimeforaname · 19/08/2020 20:17

I also hadn't heard of a Bio queen until late last year.

Sandiepatterson · 19/08/2020 20:23

I can't stand it and I just don't get it!!

I've no idea what it's all about really other than being very misogynistic. I never watch it.

Notimeforaname · 19/08/2020 20:27

I've no idea what it's all about you could find out a little about it if you wanted and the different styles and types, might help you understand a little better. I don't mean change your opinion on it of course! You dont like what you don't like, that's fine and not likely to change, but maybe it would be interesting to some, to see how drag kings and bio queens do it.

Notimeforaname · 19/08/2020 20:29

Sandiepatterson sorry, I didn't mean for that to be directly pointed at you!
I just meant for those that haven't really seem women performing in drag amd were interested. Sorry!

Notimeforaname · 19/08/2020 20:30

Seen* 🙄

NiceGerbil · 19/08/2020 21:12

Well I stopped on the Canada drag race couple nights back while channel surfing to check that I wasn't being closed minded etc as I'd not seen it for years and always hated it.

It surpassed my expectations in terms of awfulness.

I hate panto dames as well. Exactly the same thing. Man mocking caricature of woman.

Notimeforaname · 19/08/2020 21:57

Well I stopped on the Canada drag race couple nights back while channel surfing to check that I wasn't being closed minded etc
That's all you can do really. We can't force ourselves to like somthing we don't.

NiceGerbil · 20/08/2020 01:44

But drag race is a mainstream TV show in loads of countries that is being heavily advertised.

I dipped in for 5 mins and it was the usual nasty sterotypes about women. Ok whatever. The jonbenet thing threw me though. I googled. DH was WTF as well. Here comes so and so with a classic pageant Queen look is bad enough. A grown man in heels and makeup and big hair wig, in a little frothy skirt doing like. Dunno. Little girl pretending to be a grown up moves. Grim. Then the judges say you're rocking a jonbenet.

You see I have less issues while this is in gay venues. It's adult gay male entertainment. Drag has always been misogynistic. But as a subculture thing. Ok. Whatever.

Mainstreaming this rank misogyny is a different thing.

No you won't change my mind. I felt uncomfortable from really young. With men dressing up as women and exaggerating stereotypes. It was on the TV all the time in the 70s.

But why the mainstreaming? Going into schools and libraries?

LGB + would be much better served with gay and lesbian people talking about their jobs and lives and challenges. Much more helpful for children who may be gay/ have gay parents/ be gender not nonconforming.

But no it's all drag. Why?

Aridane · 20/08/2020 02:18

I think drag should be banned. If someone isn't funny enough as a man, or doesn't sing well enough as a man, or whatever, doing those things dressed as a woman doesn't help

Yeah - and let’s ban pantomime dames while we’re at it - boo, hiss

Aridane · 20/08/2020 02:27

Interestingn US article on this (yes, it’s written by A Man)

**
Last week Mary Cheney asked why blackface is bad but drag isn’t. Here’s what she wrote:

Why is it socially acceptable ... for men to put on dresses, make up and high heels and act out every offensive stereotype of women (bitchy, catty, dumb, slutty, etc.) — but it is not socially acceptable ... for a white person to put on blackface and act out offensive stereotypes of African Americans?

Shouldn’t both be ok or neither?

And can you believe that made people upset? Usually my videos are about what’s happening with marriage equality over on my show Marriage News Watch, but I just have to weigh in here, because I love drag, I work with drag queens, and I’ve seen a lot of people who don’t know how to answer her question. Even if we think it’s a dumb question, we should have a smart, simple answer. So let’s talk about it: Why is drag different from blackface?

On the surface, yeah, there are similarities between blackface and drag. They’re both one group posing as another group. They both rely on exaggerated stereotypes of people who are disempowered. They’re both over-the-top caricatures.

But blackface is inherently racist. You can’t take the racism out of it. Drag, on the other hand, you can easily separate from misogyny. Most drag — in fact, almost all drag — is about strong, powerful, admirable female characters. With blackface black people are the butt of the joke. But with drag it’s not women who are the butt of the joke but rules about gender roles. Nobody looks at a drag queens and thinks, “Oh, yeah, that’s what women are really like” — the way that a lot of Americans did with blackface and minstrel shows.

And there’s something else going on with drag. Unlike stock minstrel characters, drag characters are a personal expression of the performer. Drag queens aren’t just imitating female stereotypes; they’re expressing how fluid their own gender can be. That’s why a performer’s drag name, and drag family, and drag costume are so important to them. Blackface performers, on the other hand, aren’t expressing anything internal. They’re not asserting their personal racial fluidity. All that blackface does is lie about what people of color are like.

Now there is, of course, bad drag. Bad drag is just a man wearing a dress, not making any effort to perform, or create a character, or express anything. With bad drag, the whole joke is that it’s supposedly embarrassing for a man to be seen acting feminine. That’s not real drag. That’s just ridiculing women and queers, and if you want to be fancy about it, it’s perpetuating the cycle of patriarchal hegemony. That’s bad.

I’m saying that drag is not demeaning to women, but maybe you shouldn’t completely take my word for it, because I’m not a woman. A lot of the people publicly weighing in right now are men. And that’s great, but since we’re talking about how drag affects women, it’s important to, you know, actually listen to what women are saying about it.

And this gets to another difference between drag and blackface. Not only are women not usually offended by drag, but women actually perform drag themselves. Even little girls do drag when they dress up as princesses. Those are exaggerated feminine characters, an expression of an attraction to or curiosity about gender roles. Drag is how you explore who you are, or who you can become. As RuPaul says, we’re born naked and the rest is drag. No one has ever said we’re born naked and the rest is a minstrel show.

So let’s sum it up. Next time someone asks why drag is OK and blackface isn’t, you can tell them that drag is an expression of yourself, whereas blackface is an attack on someone else; blackface reinforces an imbalance of power, whereas drag disassembles an imbalance of power; blackface is a relic, whereas drag is what we all do, every day, every time we put on clothes.

JaJaDingDong · 20/08/2020 07:29

Written by a man - exactly.

Just like all the other crap men write about why it's ok to dress as a woman, use women's toilets, take women's jobs, take part in women's sport etc.

Men: just leave being a woman to women. Please. We are much better at it than you are.

aSofaNearYou · 20/08/2020 08:54

Absolute nonsense to say blackface always puts black people as the butt of the joke whilst drag doesn't do the same to women, frankly. A vast majority of what gets described as blackface these days (since the minstrel shows are long gone) is just famous people doing themselves up to look like they have the characteristics of black people, often for a role. There isn't even a joke there let alone a butt of the joke, they just naively didn't realise why it wasn't ok for them to be the one to play that role. The drag people are complaining about, meanwhile, is very akin to the actual minstrel shows (which people would find beyond shocking these days), and is actually happening and rising in popularity right now!

It comes across as very biased to talk about "good and bad drag" but only talk about the worst examples of black face. Trying to minimise the issue by talking about other types of drag that don't mock and parody women is not helpful to anyone - nobody minds if they keep doing that. But it doesn't make the very prevalent element of drag which is men making a mockery of women any less revolting and offensive. It shouldn't be protected as an art alongside the non offensive parts just because they're technically both called drag.

And banging on about how drag is a positive thing because of the "self expression" it allows gay people is basically saying you think it's fine to throw women under the bus to achieve that. Why should women have to put up with being parodied and mocked because it has been an affirming experience for the gay community? Perhaps, like everybody else that has ever built comedy around laughing at people they have mistreated and oppressed, they should learn to bond over something less offensive. It's really not hard, the rest of us are doing it. For some reason it doesn't matter when it's women being mocked 🙄

Notimeforaname · 20/08/2020 10:54

You see I have less issues while this is in gay venues. It's adult gay male entertainment

No, its entertainment for/by everybody and anybody. Not just gay males😊
Ah while you'd like for it to be confined to a 'gay venue' it's definitely not going to be like that .
As we can see lately schools and libraries etc are offering these jobs out... So of course a freelance performer will take it, it's in demand and getting evermore popular and mainstream. Think drag is here to stay

Notimeforaname · 20/08/2020 10:56

And 'drag' as a whole isn't just men. Many females perform in drag. Just a pity that's not so mainstream yet. But it's coming 😊

KingFredsTache · 20/08/2020 10:59

I’m saying that drag is not demeaning to women, but maybe you shouldn’t completely take my word for it, because I’m not a woman.

Well... Quite.

Men telling women what they should and shouldn't find demeaning, how they should and shouldn't feel about everything. Same aul shite.

Notimeforaname · 20/08/2020 11:05

I've had more women telling me how I ought to feel, than men.😂

LillianBland · 20/08/2020 11:07

@KingFredsTache

I’m saying that drag is not demeaning to women, but maybe you shouldn’t completely take my word for it, because I’m not a woman.

Well... Quite.

Men telling women what they should and shouldn't find demeaning, how they should and shouldn't feel about everything. Same aul shite.

Exactly. And the only women that men like this listen to are those that agree with his viewpoint. There are always women who will do men’s biding, no matter the cost to females, because some women are desperate for any crumbs men throw at them.

Any women that disagrees with something that benefits men at the expense of women, such as woman face, is judged as being uptight, frigid, jealous, bigoted, no sense of humour, etc. Any woman that disagrees, will never be thought of as being correct, because men are always right. Hmm

Notimeforaname · 20/08/2020 11:10

I love drag I've been around it since I was a teenager and performed along side drag kings and Queens for decades but it definitely doesn't make me upset or frustrated to know others despise it, this is to be expected.
We all like different things,
Variety is the spice of life there's loads out there to see and do,once it's perfectly legal of course!

Notimeforaname · 20/08/2020 11:14

Any woman that disagrees, will never be thought of as being correct
Well these people are just idiots then. Thank god I have the freedom to agree/disagree. I can be thought of as incorrect if that's what somebody wants. But it won't effect my opinion

TallFriendlyGinger · 20/08/2020 12:06

I dont personally see a problem with it but perhaps it's a generational thing. I like watching drag shows, the competitions are funny, the outfits are gorgeous, and the looks are very creative. I view it as a talent show for creation, with each queen as a "persona". I think it's an interesting way to play around with gender and how you present yourself. Same with drag kings, it's an opportunity to be different and explore a part of yourself you might not usually be able to.

Aridane · 20/08/2020 15:05

I've had more women telling me how I ought to feel, than men.😂

Yep

Shame it takes a man to express better what I feel than a multitude of escapees from FWR

< disclaimer: really don’t like drag or pantomime dames but NOT for the reasons declaimed on this thread >

WendyHoused · 20/08/2020 15:44

I can't see why a sexualised parody of womanhood is mainstream entertainment. It's a disrespectful and misogynistic caricature.

Notimeforaname · 20/08/2020 16:03

I really hope it's not too long before tv/the general public get to see women perform in drag.

Notimeforaname · 20/08/2020 16:05

It's becoming more and more popular on local scenes for now. Would be great to see them get some air time and attention like queens do.

Swipe left for the next trending thread