Drag, drag, drag....

[Yarboosucks]

I have never been a particularly sensitive or active feminist, but all this drag rubbish on TV is getting to me. How at a time when rightly you could not broadcast in black face or similar is it OK to mock or at best caricature women so ridiculously?

@Notimeforaname
But no 'womanface' isn't a thing

I agree, first time I heard that on here I did this face and then laughed.
I find the term silly, doesn't feel like "womanface" at all to me, me personally I feel comfortable in myself without looking at others and thinking they're making fun of me.

Quaagars it's definitely up there as one of the funniest things I've heard on mumsnet so far 😂

Why is "well I don't find it offensive" seen as a counter argument? There will be black people out there that are not offended by out of touch comedians wearing black face paint. Some people not being offended by something does not mean there is nothing offensive about it.

Black people and women have both been horrifically mistreated by white people/men throughout history, and to this day. Some white women will also be complicit in racism and some black men will be complicit in sexism. They are intrinsically, and undeniably, comparable situations. There is absolutely no valid logic behind saying you are "of course" offended by black people being parodied by their oppressors, while it is laughable to be offended by women being parodied by their oppressors.

If someone could come up with a valid counter argument to that, I would truly love to hear it.

What about drag kings? Are they an outrage too?

Not for me personally, because men have never been and are not currently oppressed by the hands of women. Drag kings are less offensive in the same way that nobody is offended by a black man wearing white makeup.

That's got nothing to do with drag Queens though?

That poster was laughing at the idea of women being worried about men in dresses in the ladies toilets of Budgens. I was pointing out that it's not such a hilarious notion after all...

How is it different to blackface? How is taking lazy stereotypes about women, and then amplifying and caricaturing them for entertainment any different?

And it is interesting that Drag Kings aren't anywhere near as popular as drag queens isn't it? I have never seen a drag King feature of a TV advert, get their own TV show, have their own stint reading stories to kids in libraries in the name of 'insclusivity'? Why is that I wonder?

They are intrinsically, and undeniably, comparable situations. T

In your opinion.
Not in mine.
I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with men dressing up in drag.
People usually complain on here that trans women saying they ARE women is problematic, so even when it's drag, and they're men, and nothing to do with trans, people STILL have a problem with it?
Should everyone just get back in their box and wear stereotypical clothes instead?
Men - suits, trousers
Women - floaty 50s house dresses
No deviation?
I see it as people expressing themselves, not piss taking.
Let them crack on in my opinion, doesn't affect me.

If drag was men wearing makeup and dresses and celebrating being men doing that, I wouldnt have a problem with it.

Its men demanding they be called she, queens and using female names because they put some lippy and a dress on that bugs me.

Drag is gender stereotyping.

Earlier in the year I was at a drag show/competition in a large university. There were about 6 or 7 contestants I think. Two of those were drag kings and two were Bio queens,I believe they're called.
Just women who enjoy the freedom of choosing any kind or hair, make up or costume imaginable and performing on stage to an encouraging audience whether shes singing dancing or twirly on roller skates.
Some people just like to perform a type of dance or art that isn't really the norm.
Drag, like many things, has different styles and genres If you like.
It's not just men dressing as women and insulting them.
Obviously this goes on and while Ive never been part of that scene myself,I see things people post here and honestly some of it does shock me amd make me ill.
Not because it's a person in drag, but because they're doing /saying somthing awful.

Now more than ever I find many newer drag artists to be quite androgynous, no obvious gender or often doing their hair and makeup like a character from a movie or somthing their imagination cooked up.
Vogue dance is a huge part of the drag scene so many performers will concentrate more on their dance technique and costume...its really not just what you see on TV or in a cabaret lounge.

I have never seen a drag King feature of a TV advert, get their own TV show
what about Kathy Burke alongside Harry Enfield, Kevin and Perry? They were on a TV show and had their own movie. That was Kathy Burke in drag.

Its intresting comments on here make you feel ill, but Anna Bortions stage act doesnt.

In your opinion.
Not in mine.

It's not an opinion that women have been oppressed by men because of their womanhood. You don't get to say that's not the case, it's a fact. Just like I can't say that black people haven't been oppressed by white people. Because it's a fact.

Like I said, this isn't about men dressing in "women's" clothing. I wouldn't care in the slightest if all clothing was just clothing and none of it was labelled for men or women. This is specifically about drag "acts" that dress in ways to deliberately parody/mock stereotypical images of women, and build their entire character around a negative caricature of traits associated with women.

It is absolutely beyond me how you could not see why it is valid for women to be offended by that, if you can see why a black man would be offended by a white man dressing up like him and acting like a negative stereotype associated with black people, given the history between those groups.

@Quaagars

They are intrinsically, and undeniably, comparable situations. T

In your opinion.
Not in mine.
I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with men dressing up in drag.
People usually complain on here that trans women saying they ARE women is problematic, so even when it's drag, and they're men, and nothing to do with trans, people STILL have a problem with it?
Should everyone just get back in their box and wear stereotypical clothes instead?
Men - suits, trousers
Women - floaty 50s house dresses
No deviation?
I see it as people expressing themselves, not piss taking.
Let them crack on in my opinion, doesn't affect me.

Meet John. John is a man, who is totally open about the fact he is a man. He does brilliant makeup videos in a distinctive character (I don't actually know if that's what he is actually like or if it's a character), wears dresses, has long hair, displays a lot of what we might call 'femininity'. He manages to do all this without taking the piss out of women. No big comedy breasts, no clown like makeup, no 'bitchiness' or sexualised jokes (because women spend all their time twerking and slagging each other off apparently), no offensive 'hilarious' stage name, just a man wearing a dress and makeup.

Of course we also have all those male rockstars who wore makeup, skirts etc in the 70s and 80s.

If you think that drag and caricaturing women is the only way that males could possibly exist outside of the constraints of traditional masculinity, then I suggest you open your mind a little bit.

It's not an opinion that women have been oppressed by men because of their womanhood. You don't get to say that's not the case, it's a fact. Just like I can't say that black people haven't been oppressed by white people. Because it's a fact

Show me where I said that? I never said that at all. I said drag does not offend me. But I respect the opinions of others and how it can be offensive to you. I'm fine with that.
There's perfectly legal things which offend me and don't offend others. It's ok.

KingFredsTache I love John! 🤣I could listen to that accent all day.

@Notimeforaname I was quoting Quaagars

what about Kathy Burke alongside Harry Enfield, Kevin and Perry? They were on a TV show and had their own movie. That was Kathy Burke in drag.

Are you really going to compare one woman dressed as a teenage boy character from 20 odd years ago, with the dozens of series of Drag Race around the world, the multiple TV shows that drag queens have had, the adverts, the Drag Queen story times for kids, the male 'drag kids', Drag Con, the general ubiquity of drag queens everywhere?!

Why isn't there a Drag King Story Time by the way?!

I personally love Drag Race and find the 'ladies' really funny. As in their bitchy chat and funny sketches. I don't think they are trying to pretend to be women and pass for women. They are Drag Queens. Men dressed like women. The are the first to poke fun at themselves.

I also watched the spin on We're Here where they go to a little town and put on a free drag show for the locals. In the first part of the show they go around out of drag as their normal guy selves and chat to people. They don't pretend to be women at all.

Drag has been around for a long long time. There are a few documentaries on Netflix about it. Long before all the 'new' issues women have to deal with were even dreamed up.

I find it harmless and fun. I accept it's not for everyone the same way I can't tolerate total trash TV like Love Island and Essex. Bright orange, botox filled, blinding white teethed girls don't represent me anymore than drag queens do.

If they dont pretend to be women or pass as women, why did you call them 'ladies'?

Are you really going to compare one woman dressed as a teenage boy character from 20 odd years ago, with the dozens of series of Drag Race around the world, the multiple TV shows that drag queens have had, the adverts, the Drag Queen story times for kids, the male 'drag kids', Drag Con, the general ubiquity of drag queens everywhere?!

Why isn't there a Drag King Story Time by the way?

Nope, I didn't compare the two at all. I actually said there were many different styles and genres. These two examples are very different. It was in response somebody saying they never saw a drag king on TV or film. This was Kathy Burke in drag. That's all.

And I don't know why there isn't a drag king storytime. No idea.

@PheasantPlucker1

If they dont pretend to be women or pass as women, why did you call them 'ladies'?

When they are in Drag they call themselves 'ladies' tongue in cheek.

The tag line on Drag Race is 'gentlemen start your engines and may the best 'woman' win. the woman is said with a wink.

@KingFredsTache
All hail Lord Maclean!

Quaagars it's definitely up there as one of the funniest things I've heard on mumsnet so far 😂

@Notimeforaname - I hear you but raise you the inimitable thread where OP virulently objected to children drawing rainbows 🌈 in lockdown and putting in window.

Because, you know, it’s an LGBT 🏳️‍🌈 symbol and don’t you know The Bloody Trans have hijacked LGBT

To be fair, that poster get her arse handed to her

🌈 🌈 🌈 🌈

(incomplete quote above - referring to WOMAN FACE)