Drag, drag, drag....

[Yarboosucks]

I have never been a particularly sensitive or active feminist, but all this drag rubbish on TV is getting to me. How at a time when rightly you could not broadcast in black face or similar is it OK to mock or at best caricature women so ridiculously?

importantly who would have been at risk of harm walking down the street dressed as a woman.

Maybe once. Not anymore. Men are quite happy to dress as women these days, and it doesn't stop them moving out of that so called once safe space, and heading off to the library to read stories to other people's children. And with names like Phallic Cunt, Anna Bortion and Karen from Accounts, this is anti women. Demeaning women for amusement. It's revolting. Like black face is. And they are both the same.

importantly who would have been at risk of harm walking down the street dressed as a woman.

From other men. Not women.

The oppression comes from other men the same way blackface came from white oppression surely.

I can't believe this thread. Of all the things to be offended by! Drag is art, self expression and comedy. It's not men dressing as women, it's men dressing as drag queens.

@Leflic

importantly who would have been at risk of harm walking down the street dressed as a woman.

From other men. Not women.

The oppression comes from other men the same way blackface came from white oppression surely.

If the oppression comes from other men then why isn't the kick back against them? Why does a marginalised group instead turn round and find a group of people who have even less privilege and ridicule them?

Seriously? If it offends you switch over.

Some of us have better things to be worried about.

I avoid it and would switch off if one came on a show I was watching. Not for me. Think it's shit, talentless and offensive to women. IMO.

It's basically what men want all over again. Women who complain are hags, have no sense of humour, are terfs, I could go on. Yes, it's mysogynistic.

I agree that this is a recent development. I'm talking last 5 years or so that it's gone from art and design and humour to shade, fish and disparaging real women (by this I mean real women with vaginas, not trans women)

I don't like drag and I find it offensive. Any woman who enjoys it is clearly not a feminist.

@TacosTuesday

The comparison with black face is just plain wrong. Black face was 'comedy' specifically demeaning black people for amusement. That's not the point of drag, drag is about subverting mainstream culture, safe space and over the top characters - importantly who would have been at risk of harm walking down the street dressed as a woman. Black face was created by the oppressors. Drag inspite of them. Despite it's mainstream appearence now, this has not always been a 'thing'. I used to go to a drag night at a local gay club and have never laughed so much- or felt as safe. The humour is pointed at everyone (including the performer themselves), it has never been specifically aimed at anti-women. I can't comment on the current mainstream comedy but the roots of drag and black face are very different and not comparable.

You're deluding yourself on that one.

@wildone84

I don't like drag and I find it offensive. Any woman who enjoys it is clearly not a feminist.

Do you have a list of what is feminist and what isn't please? You seem to be the self appointed gatekeeper of feminism.

I agree that this is a recent development. I'm talking last 5 years or so that it's gone from art and design and humour to shade, fish and disparaging real women (by this I mean real women with vaginas, not trans women)

No it has been like this since I can remember 30+ years.

Saw a huge poster in Brum today advertising one of the drag shows. Did chuckle a bit to myself as I wondered how many people had seen it and driven to work with their lemon face on. 😂

It's not men dressing as women, it's men dressing as drag queens.

It's men dressing as exaggerated stereotypes of women.

I don't like Ru paul's drag race, but my sister who identifies as queer LOVES it, as does my daughter who has otherwise feminist principles and beliefs. I don't think drag as an historic form of showbiz and expression is necessarily associated with bitchiness and the "worst" feminine stereotypes - but historically mostly revolves around exaggerated, cartoonish make-up and dress.

I understand the comparison with blackface, but I think that comparison falls short when i heard many of the contestants in RU paul talk about how empowering they found drag, how it was for them the moment they found themselves, they explore their authentic selves etc. I don't think that is true for blackface- I don't think anyone doing blackface found it empowering or as a way to explore their authentic being or whatever!!

As mumsnet is fond of saying, womanhood / femininity is about much more than wearing and dress and makeup! I don't find any of the behaviours exhibited by the Ru Paul contestants, or by Ru Paul himself to be associated with traditional stereotypical femininity- eg gentle, caring, nurturing etc. If anything, the opposite- Ru paul himself is a very masculine person, and the characteristics encouraged on the show: ruthlessness, competitiveness, excellence, endurance, loudness, these are all, rightly or wrongly, associated with masculinity. None of the contestants that i have seen scream "women" to me- they are very clearly dressed up men! both in behaviours and looks.

Yes - it must be very empowering to be able to put on womanface, and then take it off again when it suits...

@GoshHashana what can I say? It's not for me either, but if some men claim they find it empowering and "who they truly are" to wear exaggerated dresses and make-up, then why should we disbelieve them? Some of them say they were subject to a lot of bullying and even ostracization from their family and friends for this . Not to mention, plenty of women find it also fun/empowering/whatever to wear very sexualized clothes and dramatic make up sometimes.

Anyway, I can see how some of the jokes are offensive and mocking (the fishy joke is just gross), but I don't see drag as a whole, and Ru Paul's drag race in particular, as mocking women per se, if anything, they are mocking the stereotypes associated with women. because of course women don't go around in normal daily life looking like that.

I agree OP

[quote ABingThing]@AlsDiner exactly what I was going to say!

As for the relation to blackface:

Example 1: oppressing class dresses up as oppressed class and uses jokes and songs to parody and demean them

Example 2: oppressing class dresses up as oppressed class and uses jokes and songs to parody and demean them

I'll leave you to decide which example is drag and which example is blackface[/quote]
This.
Also I am really pleased to see so many of us hate this, I had thought it was passing unnoticed.

If there is such a thing as privilege, the current embracing of this male drag phenomenon is an exemplar of it. We are all being schooled in it - and to find it harmless, or even desirable as a liberation of certain men - by the media, especially by the publicly funded BBC and the state-mandated Channel 4. The target includes women and shamefully, children but also men. The lack of a national powerful voice for women allows this agenda to be promoted relentlessly by the misogynistic BBC without protest and carried on with readings in libraries and schools, as described in some of the articles linked in this thread.

Women have acted and protested powerfully about the recent ideological threats to the status of women and girls but it has been scattered and at huge personal cost to individual women in academia especially, and significantly hasn't come from Parliament or the establishment BBC and bodies charged with enforcing rights and laws - Equality and Human Rights Commission or the Department for Education, both of which need to get a grip - but probably won't. There is a huge deficit in our system that enables it to override and dismiss the interests of women in favour of other interests. I'm thinking seriously of giving up tv - even though I don't want to - in order not to continue funding the BBC but in the absence of a powerful campaign and voice I'm doubtful it will have any effect, sadly.

A question to all those peeps who have stated that drag queens do not offend them/can't see what the problem is/quite like it etc.

Do you have any theories as to why drag kings are clearly not as popular in mainstream culture?

(Why is it so funny and entertaining when a man pretends to be a woman but not the other way round?)

I guess there must be a reason for that.

@BMW6

I loathe drag. Deeply misogynistic shite.

Completely agree.

A transgender lady was moaning about finding drag acts a piss take on people like her, until I pointed out that it was a pisstake on ALL women and she should not take it personally. So yes I agree with you OP it’s getting out of hand now and starting to feel almost sinister.

"Do you have any theories as to why drag kings are clearly not as popular in mainstream culture?"
I'm assuming the drag scene is very different in the UK than here in Ireland.. We have quite a lot of drag Kings here.

Why is it always a man dressed as a woman and not a woman dressed as a man?