Drag, drag, drag....

[Yarboosucks]

I have never been a particularly sensitive or active feminist, but all this drag rubbish on TV is getting to me. How at a time when rightly you could not broadcast in black face or similar is it OK to mock or at best caricature women so ridiculously?

@Autviaminveniamautfaciam to be honest I think that is a very outdated view on drag.

One thing that really annoys me in general is how men can’t wear “women’s clothes” as a matter of course, just as clothes. Well of course they can and some do (and I love it when a man does dresses as a style statement, like billy Porter) but it’s rare and really limited to creative and eccentric types - it would be very hard for a man to do it in a normal office for example.

In one way it’s a success for women that we’ve adopted traditionally “male” clothes over the past couple of centuries and can wear what we like, with a much wider range of clothing being socially acceptable. But because it isn’t the same the other way round, “women’s clothes” are this thing of costume, fetish and ridicule. You couldn’t really have drag or “cross-dressing” in the same way if men could just wear a wide choice of clothes without comment, like women can.

I understand the comparisons to blackface and I think there is an offensive element in that way - but there is a difference in that “women’s” clothes and make up are gender, not biology. They don’t need to represent women, they just do for cultural reasons.

Also yes gay men can be really misogynistic! They are often extremely rude about women’s bodies, and lesbians get a right kicking IME. Of course not all but it is a thing.

@PrawnRingonit

Well, for starters drag isn’t mocking women.

May I ask how you came up with that one?

there is a difference in that “women’s” clothes and make up are gender, not biology.

Yes, and the reason so many women have fought against gender stereotyping is because those stereotypes are the expression of misogyny.

Make up, clothing styles, hair styles, even whether you shave your genitals - these are part of the biologically unnecessary expectations of women.

Add in demeanor, 'know your place', bitchy, hysterical, emotion-driven rather than logic-led, not as smart, over reacting, 'hun', prude, frigid, slut, loving all things soft, sparkly, fluffy and fucking unicorns, then you get into the realms of how men justify to themselves not giving women equal pay, or the right to vote, or how they used to justify marital rape, how they still justify FGM and the abortion of female foetuses, etc.

I don't care if a drag performer can do exquisite make up - I care that he's doing it because he thinks it screams 'woman'. Add in fishy, bitchy and the rest of it, and it's parody/mockery.

When drag artists stop worrying about their make up and start demonstrating and showing understanding of the effect of unpaid caring roles, lower pay, fewer opportunities, the damage from childbirth, FGM, the disproportionate number of DV cases, the rapes and sexual assaults whose perpetrators will never face conviction, then I'll stop seeing it as parody and believe they see women as more than one dimensional fodder for their act.

Since the reality of being female isn't very entertaining, I won't hold my breath.

Most drag queens don’t dress in ‘ordinary’ women’s clothes. They dress in an exaggerated almost pantomime version of women’s clothes and generally portray a very exaggerated pantomime dame type of won manhood. As I said above I generally find them misogynistic and offensive.

OTOH on a recent trip to Brighton my eye was caught by a group of three very attractive, well dressed, well groomed women out shopping and I mentioned to a friend how smart they looked. We saw them again later In a bar and only then realised that they were actually three cross dressing men or possibly transitioning transsexuals. I don’t actually know what category or label they came under but I do know they all looked fantastic and I didn’t find their wearing women’s clothes and looking like women in any way offensive. Perhaps because they were doing it IRL not on stage for laughs, attention and money?

If you were in Brighton and they were going about their normal business Quarantime then they were more likely than not transwoman. A completely different thing. You knew they weren't female. They would say they were women though.

@Doyoumind Maybe, I don’t know. I live part time in `Brighton and so am fairly used to a fairly broad range of gender indentification and these three perplexed me. All I know is they looked amazing and put me and my mates in our comfy boots and jeans to shame.

possibly transitioning transsexuals.
Argh! Please don't confuse sex with gender. You can't change your sex.

they looked amazing and put me and my mates in our comfy boots and jeans to shame.
Why, because they displayed the 'womanly' stereotype better than you did?

I don't think men wearing drag mean to offend anyone any more than people in blackface do. But they do, and causing offense is in the eye of the beholder.

I really despise drag. I feel that behind it is a really unpleasant assumption - the real reason women can dress in masculine clothes in everyday life and men can't is because there is an inherent view that women are inferior. Therefore for a man to wear women's clothes is to lower themselves to our level. The same way a little girl can wear her brother's clothes but not vice versa.

I feel that this is still at the heart of drag - a man dressing as a woman adopts a nasty stereotype of a woman to parody. The point is he wants to make it clear that he is still a man (ie of the superior gender) and he does this by mocking actual women and portraying them in a degrading manner. To me a made up drag queen is to women what a gollywog is to a black person. If sarcasm is the lowest form of wit then caricature is the lowest form of "art".

@ABingThing

there is a difference in that “women’s” clothes and make up are gender, not biology.

Yes, and the reason so many women have fought against gender stereotyping is because those stereotypes are the expression of misogyny.

Make up, clothing styles, hair styles, even whether you shave your genitals - these are part of the biologically unnecessary expectations of women.

Add in demeanor, 'know your place', bitchy, hysterical, emotion-driven rather than logic-led, not as smart, over reacting, 'hun', prude, frigid, slut, loving all things soft, sparkly, fluffy and fucking unicorns, then you get into the realms of how men justify to themselves not giving women equal pay, or the right to vote, or how they used to justify marital rape, how they still justify FGM and the abortion of female foetuses, etc.

I don't care if a drag performer can do exquisite make up - I care that he's doing it because he thinks it screams 'woman'. Add in fishy, bitchy and the rest of it, and it's parody/mockery.

When drag artists stop worrying about their make up and start demonstrating and showing understanding of the effect of unpaid caring roles, lower pay, fewer opportunities, the damage from childbirth, FGM, the disproportionate number of DV cases, the rapes and sexual assaults whose perpetrators will never face conviction, then I'll stop seeing it as parody and believe they see women as more than one dimensional fodder for their act.

Since the reality of being female isn't very entertaining, I won't hold my breath.

100% THIS. 👏🏻

I think many drag acts at best, border on a very thin line which overspills into offensive to women. It's very deliberate and quite clever how they skirt the line (while not necessarily being funny in any way other than just being offensive about women) and are very much a one trick pony.

I think if an entertainer was do this regularly about any other oppressed group most people would find it unacceptable. I think it's interesting that society, and many women, are ok with this. I think there's something quite sad about the entertainer who feels they need to be so disrespectful.

What I am 100% am not ok with is drag being used in library and school story times as a tick box for LGB. There are so many other ways to champion LGB (I've deliberately left the other letters off as I don't think they belong there, not being sexual orientations 'n all) and the different jobs those individuals do and if we really want our kids to grow up feeling comfortable with their sexuality then I've no idea how the F drag fits in with that. Some of the acts who were called in for this early this year (Scotland I think?) and late last had very dubious insta and Twitter activity which was a safeguarding no-no and as for all the rolling around on the floor with kids ... jeez, I work in a classroom and have been vetted, if I did that with my kids at story time I'd be out the door.

Anyway - that's my tuppence worth

@Jaxhog because they looked stylish and beautiful!

[quote ABingThing]@zh91 ah, the biker gear thing makes more sense now!

The other bit though, I understand there's heteronormative oppression of gay people. What I don't understand why this stops drag being an act of misogynistic oppression?

That some of the oppressive class are oppressed themselves for other reasons doesn't invalidate their actions to the group they're parodying.[/quote]
What I was commenting on is, what's the difference between blackface and drag? It's been suggested they are the same because they involve an oppressor class mocking/parodying an oppressed class:

Blackface = white people mocking/parodying black people.
Drag = men mocking/parodying women.

However this skims over the fact drag comes from the gay community. Does this matter? I think it does because another way to look it is gay people (oppressed) are actually mocking/parodying the heteronormative (oppressor), which is the opposite way round to blackface.

One example of parodying the heteronormative are drag queens who parody a heteronormative female ideal but gay people also parody a heteronormative male ideal in things like The Village People. I think this view of what drag and The Village People are parodying makes some sense and is why I think it's wrong to say drag is "just the same" as blackface - there is a bit more going on.

FWIW I don't actually like drag but that's because I'm not a fan of cabaret entertainment. I will admit though to singing along (rather too loudly at times!) to YMCA and In The Navy, so I have very much enjoyed gay people parodying a heteronormative male ideal and so I think parodying a heteronormative female ideal is ok too.

However, none of this excuses misogyny and some drag performers may have a case to answer, it's just that I think it's too simplistic to say drag is the same as blackface.

How is drag offensive to women? Also you clearly don't understand it if you think it's done as a caricature of a woman/women in general.

Such an uneducated post

@Londonmummy66

I really despise drag. I feel that behind it is a really unpleasant assumption - the real reason women can dress in masculine clothes in everyday life and men can't is because there is an inherent view that women are inferior. Therefore for a man to wear women's clothes is to lower themselves to our level. The same way a little girl can wear her brother's clothes but not vice versa.

I feel that this is still at the heart of drag - a man dressing as a woman adopts a nasty stereotype of a woman to parody. The point is he wants to make it clear that he is still a man (ie of the superior gender) and he does this by mocking actual women and portraying them in a degrading manner. To me a made up drag queen is to women what a gollywog is to a black person. If sarcasm is the lowest form of wit then caricature is the lowest form of "art".

Jesus Christ

Gaslighting. If you repeat something three times it doesn't magically become true.

@Rwoolley

How is drag offensive to women? Also you clearly don't understand it if you think it's done as a caricature of a woman/women in general.

Such an uneducated post

Such a patronising post back atcha. You've got 10 pages of women explaining why it's offensive. You clearly can't read either.

I loathe it, ugly low rent entertainment for people who enjoy mockery and sadism.

I do actually like some drag acts. Dame Edna, Lilly Savage, even Pauline Calf. But they are talented comedians and they have made a study of the human condition which they use in their act. Someone like Baga Chipz thinking that making crude innuendos is an act gets on my tit ends.

@ABingThing

there is a difference in that “women’s” clothes and make up are gender, not biology.

Yes, and the reason so many women have fought against gender stereotyping is because those stereotypes are the expression of misogyny.

Make up, clothing styles, hair styles, even whether you shave your genitals - these are part of the biologically unnecessary expectations of women.

Add in demeanor, 'know your place', bitchy, hysterical, emotion-driven rather than logic-led, not as smart, over reacting, 'hun', prude, frigid, slut, loving all things soft, sparkly, fluffy and fucking unicorns, then you get into the realms of how men justify to themselves not giving women equal pay, or the right to vote, or how they used to justify marital rape, how they still justify FGM and the abortion of female foetuses, etc.

I don't care if a drag performer can do exquisite make up - I care that he's doing it because he thinks it screams 'woman'. Add in fishy, bitchy and the rest of it, and it's parody/mockery.

When drag artists stop worrying about their make up and start demonstrating and showing understanding of the effect of unpaid caring roles, lower pay, fewer opportunities, the damage from childbirth, FGM, the disproportionate number of DV cases, the rapes and sexual assaults whose perpetrators will never face conviction, then I'll stop seeing it as parody and believe they see women as more than one dimensional fodder for their act.

Since the reality of being female isn't very entertaining, I won't hold my breath.

^^ This. Thank you great post.

@zh91
One example of parodying the heteronormative are drag queens who parody a heteronormative female ideal but gay people also parody a heteronormative male ideal in things like The Village People. I think this view of what drag and The Village People are parodying makes some sense and is why I think it's wrong to say drag is "just the same" as blackface - there is a bit more going on.

That is an interesting point about Village People and I hadn't really thought about it before, probably why I didn't follow it in my first reply.

I think I find it hard to equalise that with the drag, though. It's one group and a handful of songs poking at the male side of heteronormative oppression, versus increasing numbers of TV shows focusing on the female side. It is massively unbalanced and I feel that imbalance is fed by the inherent misogyny.

I cannot believe you are comparing drag to racisim

I feel like the women on here who cant see the misogyny of drag are so steeped in the misogynistic patriarchy we all live in that they just don't see it.
The boiled frog analogy comes to mind.

The comparison with black face is just plain wrong. Black face was 'comedy' specifically demeaning black people for amusement. That's not the point of drag, drag is about subverting mainstream culture, safe space and over the top characters - importantly who would have been at risk of harm walking down the street dressed as a woman. Black face was created by the oppressors. Drag inspite of them. Despite it's mainstream appearence now, this has not always been a 'thing'. I used to go to a drag night at a local gay club and have never laughed so much- or felt as safe. The humour is pointed at everyone (including the performer themselves), it has never been specifically aimed at anti-women. I can't comment on the current mainstream comedy but the roots of drag and black face are very different and not comparable.