Son's girlfriend thinks suntans are racist

[DollyDaydream70]

I could be opening a real can of worms here, but I'm genuinely gobsmacked by a few things my Son's 18yr old girlfriend said to me last night..

First of all she asked me did I think it's racist for white girls to copy black girl's style. I had no clue what she was referring to as 'black girl's style' so asked her to elaborate. She then referred to a singer called Ariane Grande (who I know literally 0 about) and said that she tans herself until she's almost black and 'dresses like a black girl'.

I've Googled said singer and all I can find is a pic of her with Nikki Minaj where, yes, she looks dark, but so what? We've been tanning since Coco Chanel made it stylish in the 1920's, and probably long before that! What are we supposed to do? Stay indoors when the sun shines ffs?!!

Son's GF also stated that it's racist for a white person to wear corn rows in their hair. I told her that my friends and I used to corn row our hair a lot in the mid to late 80's, we used to stick wooden or plastic beads on the ends of our plaits, it was quite the fashion at the time!

What do you all think about this? Please tell me this is all going too far. I'm genuinely quite perplexed that tanning and corn rows could be deemed to be racist!

With Ariana Grande it's more than just her tan that many regard problematic. It's her music style, the way she dresses, the slang she uses in her songs.

With Ariana Grande it's more than just her tan that many regard problematic. It's her music style, the way she dresses, the slang she uses in her songs.

A suntan is cultural appropriation? What utter fuckwitted bollocks.

I had never really thought about any of this until last week when I was watching a really interesting program on BBC2 where well known black brits. were being asked about their experiences of different aspects of life in a mainly white country like ours. It was really interesting and thought provoking in places but one thing that did strike me was when a female black comedian stated her abhorrence towards white people who appropriate black cultural traditions or 'looks'. Her example was cornrows. I've never liked cornrows but that's beside the point. I really found it a very odd attitude. As a redheaded Celt. I don't take exception to anyone dying their hair like mine, quite the opposite. I also welcome anyone wearing traditional Scottish dress. For instance there is a well known Glaswegian Sheik chef who commonly wears a turban and kilt on TV and I love it. I feel really proud of our multicultural society when I see any example like this. So I really really don't understand this attitude I'm afraid.

Suntans were originally considered a sign of being poor. Working outside got you the tan. It was only after the industrial revolution that they became a sign of wealth and the ability to travel and have leisure time. Many cultures still consider tanning to be a bad thing (East Asian). Many cultures have considered dark skin due to naturally occurring melanin production to be worse than having lighter skin (not hard to see why) and skin lightening products still have a healthy market, I’m afraid.

So trying to get darker skin is not really cultural appropriation in a direct way - it’s cultural bound up now in the west with health and wealth, as opposed to being black, I think. So it’s different to putting corn rows in.

But we appropriate and other, often simultaneously, as humans. It what we do as we do have a great propensity to intermix - also patriarchal beauty standards often get women doing contrary things. So white women at one time perming and now beach waving their hair, and black women relaxing (using same solution as for perming) their hair or waiting weaves.

It’s not a simple think to unpick.

But yes, I think there is systemic structural racial inequality.

@loutypips So if white women cant braid their hair, should black women straighten theirs? Cultural approbation goes both ways.

1. Lots of black people have straight hair
2. Have white people been discriminated against for decades due to have straight hair?

Approbation means praise.

Another notorious Blackfisher is Jordan Lipscombe. Check out her natural look vs her faux black aesthetic. It's terrible.

A suntan is not racist, no. This is new levels of ridiculous.

No one ‘owns’ plaits.

It is not acceptable to condemn anyone for wearing their hair in its natural state.

It’s obviously not on for white people to pretend to be black. However, this does not, apparently, apply to men appropriating female appearance and experience. Go figure.

White people can tan or have cornrows. Black people can straighten their hair or lighten their skin. We live in a democracy and our bodies are our own to do what we wish with. I only feel it's sad that white women still feel pressure to tan to the point they risk skin cancer in the sun or on sun beds and black or Asian women feel the pressure to use damaging products to lighten their skin.

@midsomermurderess Thank you, you said it for me :-)

Genuinely how can clothes, or a hair style be racist surely any one can wear what they want and have their hair how they want. Skin colour is irrelevant or am I in a parcel universe ?

@Soontobe60

Ariana's heritage is Italian, therefore she will tan very darkly. There are many photos of her with varying degrees of tan. My DH is of English heritage but when he tans he also goes very dark. Would your son's gf say the same about someone like Monroe Bergdorf, who as a teen boy had very dark skin, but as a transwoman has much lighter skin, with straight blonde hair?

White people aren't oppressed. hth

What a load of twaddle, no culture owns a hairstyle. My hair is very black and if cut short looks like an afro so does that make me racist
I hope anyone on MN who isn't Scottish doesn't commit the crime of cultural appropriation by wearing a tartan scarf or tartan skirt. And all of those tartan or Harris tweed cushions will have to be removed from your sofas at once before you insult us Scots.

@BlueEyedPersephone

Genuinely how can clothes, or a hair style be racist surely any one can wear what they want and have their hair how they want. Skin colour is irrelevant or am I in a parcel universe ?

Yes you are.

Fitting username

This is silly. I'm all for the sanner points of BLM. I'm white except when I get a tan I go very dark to the point where people ask me if I speak English. I don't try to tan, I'm just not as quick with the sun tan lothian as I should be. Has it got to the point where people can be deemed racist for getting a bloody tan?

The world is going mad.

I think your son's girlfriend is being overly PC about the suntan thing.

I'm aware of cultural appropriation and as such wouldn't cornrow my hair (wouldn't know how for starters) because it's now seen as inappropriate.

I have had henna and danced Bollywood style, but in company with the Indian girl who organised these events. I don't see it as cultural appropriation then, nor when I had a henna tattoo in Indonesia - but if I constantly did it, and started to talk with a fake Indian accent or using specific terminology, THEN it would be.

I'm aware of Ariana Grande but wasn't sure of her background - but I have heard of people decrying her "blackfishing" before. However, as a woman of South Italian descent, she's going to tan easily and get quite dark, so it seems a bit disingenuous to accuse her of trying to achieve a black skintone. Although maybe she is, I don't know!

... but it's not acceptable for you to be absolutely clueless.

As a side point. Is anyone else finding this ‘I am entitled to tell you what you must think about’ attitude creepy?

Prevalent in all wokist kind of approach, demanding How/What to Think. Super creepy and the opposite of good debate.

OP, it’s my view that you are entitled to think whatever you think. Sounds like you weren’t rude and it also sounds like you are open minded, so no problem there.

I have so many issues with cultural appropriation because I think it intellectually stunts progress not to exchange ideas/hairstyles.

White people aren't oppressed

While I don’t for a second deny that Caucasians have had the upper hand against many cultures for most of history, blanket statements like this are manifestly not true and don’t help the debate.

This is such an interesting debate. My DC went to Secondary school in a very ethnically diverse part of London. There were lots of mixed race students as well as black and white students. When they were all dressed up to go ‘out out’ to a club or a prom it was often hard to know who was black or mixed and who were very fake tanned white girls. And then I wondered why I was even thinking about the ethnicity of teenagers I barely knew. How could that possibly be any of my business?

What bothered me a lot more was travelling through Asia last year and realising just how massive the market is for skin whiteners in that part of the world. Whole walls of drug stores would be devoted to thousands of products guaranteed to lighten your skin tone by X number of shades. These products are banned in the West because they aren’t effective or safe but are huge business in other parts of the world.

And what about other forms of cultural appropriation - like the thousands of Americans who call themselves Irish because their Great great great great grandad emigrated from there in 1860. They wear green on St Patrick’s day and sing songs about the IRA but couldn’t name the Irish president or point out Ireland on a map of the world. Is that OK?

@Durgasarrow

Hi, OP, I know, this is a complicated era. There are a lot of things that people are condemning now that people did in the past without meaning any harm. But there is some context to what your son's girlfriend is saying to be aware of as we move into the future. For example, I suspect that what she's saying about Ariana Grande is not that it's wrong that she suntans, but that she thinks she is trying to look dark skinned to pretend to be black, and is "acting black" inappropriately. She's taking on the witty inside jokes and style of a culture that she's not entitled to join as if she's a member, etc., and trying to blur the lines by her manner, dress, and darkening her skin tone. I can't vouch for what your son's gf was saying or if that's true about Ariana Grande, but that's what it sounds like her objection is. And I think that is an objectionable appropriation of culture, especially because Black culture is so incredibly, amazingly rich and creative that it is very marketable around the world, even though Black people themselves often do not benefit.from it.

So it's a bit like Beyonce in reverse getting her nose slimmed and hair straightened ? She is culturally misappropriating too ?

As a side point. Is anyone else finding this ‘I am entitled to tell you what you must think about’ attitude creepy? Yes I find it creepy. Especially on places like mumsnet where asking a question about something highlights lack of knowledge which in turn leads to some horrible comments. I’ve asked a few questions and been called ignorant; bizarre when I am literally trying to educate myself.

Having said that, I don’t think it’s acceptable to be “totally clueless”. Cornrows have been controversial for decades.

However I don’t think it seems like OP was being totally clueless so I don’t think she should be accused of being. Sounds like she got slightly attacked by the GF... her OP even suggests the GF started it.

Well there are some very rude people on here today, since when does asking a question merit such abuse ?
Personally, I think this is all a load of complete bollocks. Many black girls choose to straighten their hair, is that racist ? You could tie yourself in knots arguing about this . Having a tan is not racist, nor styling you hair in a particular way.

"Do better" and "educate yourself" are the ones that make me eye roll.

It's the new woke-putdown, where you can be a total arsehole on the internet but still feel all smug about it

It always makes me want to say "you WANKER".

@Oxyiz

So in young, woke world it's deeply offensive for a white female singer to have a dark tan and "appropriate" the language or hairstyle of another culture ... but meanwhile it's definitely fine and not sexist at all these days if a man puts on makeup, wig and prosthetics and a high voice and call himself a woman?

Interesting times we live in.

^^ This. A hundred times this.

Lots of cultures historically have braided their hair, including celts.
There is no single human society that hasn’t borrowed and imitated the art, fashion, architecture and culture of other neighbouring societies. When I was at school my Indian friend gave me lots of lovely presents over the years of Indian fabric, jewellery and bags. I use them with many fond memories and will continue to do so- she was proud of the beautiful things she had brought back to the UK on trips to see family in India and wanted to share these things. Who is the gatekeeper of culture?