Freebirth. Fallen out with my friend. *title edited by MNHQ*

[whateveryouneed]

Friend is 3 months pregnant. We've been friends for around 5 years. Saw her today for the first time in 8 or so weeks. She was asking me about my pregnancy and son's birth. I was honest with her and told her how it went (she already knew a fair bit but not finer details). She said it scared her a bit hearing about my son being born blue and floppy, completely flatlined. He had to be intubated and resuscitated (he's 100% fine and healthy now).

The reason it scared her is because she's planning a freebirth. She wants to give birth in her bathtub at home (rural, about 18 miles from the nearest town, further from nearest hospital). She wants no medical assistance. Just her and her husband.

I told her (fairly firmly) that I think she needs to rethink that idea and that it could be really dangerous. She thinks that because she's not high risk (at the moment), that the chances of something going wrong are minimal. She thinks that if baby is head down that she will be fine.

AIBU to be really scared for her if she goes through with this? She's just told me she can't be friends with me throughout her pregnancy if I can't support her choice.

Not sure what to say or think...

@oblada from what I understand there’s a current issue with many independent midwives? I think that’s also fuelling the issue, along with COVID. The usual choices of partners and midwife led units etc aren’t there for many women. Another friend was induced recently and her partner slept in his van in the car park outside then still bloody missed it all, she was in bits and felt very violated by the end. It’s a mess

The numbers of women on this thread with PPH is horrific.

Does anyone know the percentage of births that cause PPH?

My PPH was actually caused by a midwives actions (I have discussed the notes. I was having a fast birth, having suddenly started before induction, and a midwife entered and started the drip for induction at the set time without regard to what was going on with just a student present. My womb basically went into shock and didn’t contract, then after a delay a huge clot was stuck in my cervix. ). It’s not as simple as just having one sometimes.

@Blackbear19

The numbers of women on this thread with PPH is horrific.

Does anyone know the percentage of births that cause PPH?

1% to 5% is the proportion I have seen quoted although it varies in severity.

There also rather worringly seems to be a link with fertility treatments.
www.rcog.org.uk/en/news/rcog-release-excessive-bleeding-after-childbirth-remains-one-of-the-leading-causes-of-maternal-deaths/

She could maybe go for an independent midwife. Mine were incredibly clear that I was the decision maker. I am sure they would have sat in a different room if that was what I had wanted.

@RainingMeatballs - is there? I wasn't too sure actually what the options were. I contacted a couple and they said something about June and insurance but I never followed it up as I didn't need to. They didn't seem worried at the time but couldn't commit either...

A few friends have posted petitions etc, I think it’s insurance related

Generally most trusts induce by 41+5, these things aren't quick always and my first by then huge baby any was born at 42 weeks. I though this was done to reduce the likelihood of the plancenta failing. Induction is not a failure, it seems like it at the time, but once baby is born then does it really matter how labour started? My baby alive and happy is the most important thing. I'm not belittling birth traumas or injuries here.

I've had two inductions, and I believe people think they lead to more interventions and lack of mobility. Both I was sent to walk around and have an active birth. One I did have with assistance of ventouse, but I 100% needed that and I am happy with that because my baby was born and whilst a little stunned and not put on me immediately, he was fine. The other induction no interventions, not even a cut.

@mathanxiety

Oh, come on. We all know that contractions stopping or slowing during labour has nothing to do with the baby's life. Go and do some pearl-clutching somewhere else.

It's entirely normal and natural. It's mature's way of letting a mother's body recover before the big push, if necessary.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g Yep I believe it was an American forum (would need to double check though!) but still found it absolutely stomach-churning that these future doctors were so supportive and defensive of such a practice in a developed country. What kind of respect will they have in general for the rights and autonomy of the patients they will have power over? Just very saddening and eye-opening :(

@RainingMeatballs - interesting. One IM I spoke to did say something about insurance renewal in June, something that seemed to affect the profession but I never followed it up as thankfully they reintroduced home births in my trust so I went with that instead (whilst we can afford an IM we don't really have a lot of spare cash either so it would have been last resort). I'm not too sure what I would have done faced with no option other than hospital birth. My own midwife actually suggested at the time then I just labour at home and call at the very last moment in effect forcing their hand to come and support me at home even though technically homebirths weren't being supported. So pretty much a freebirth in practice. But i never really had to think too much about it.

[quote kikibo]**@mathanxiety

Oh, come on. We all know that contractions stopping or slowing during labour has nothing to do with the baby's life. Go and do some pearl-clutching somewhere else.

It's entirely normal and natural. It's mature's way of letting a mother's body recover before the big push, if necessary. [/quote]
Ah yes, good old Mother Nature. The same Mother Nature who kills 60,000 pregnant women in Nigeria each year, and 50,000 Indian women..

Yes, contractions can slow for a variety of reasons, some of them simple and correctable (e.g. full bladder). Yes, we are sometimes too quick to intervene. But the idea that stalled labour will always sort itself out if we let nature take its course is plain wrong. Nature taking its course often means a dead baby, a dead mother, or both.

Mother nature has a far greater tolerance for loss than we do.

I would have bled out after #2 had I not already been in an ambulance during a precipitous labour. PPH was nigh on 3l.

[quote oblada]@RainingMeatballs - interesting. One IM I spoke to did say something about insurance renewal in June, something that seemed to affect the profession but I never followed it up as thankfully they reintroduced home births in my trust so I went with that instead (whilst we can afford an IM we don't really have a lot of spare cash either so it would have been last resort). I'm not too sure what I would have done faced with no option other than hospital birth. My own midwife actually suggested at the time then I just labour at home and call at the very last moment in effect forcing their hand to come and support me at home even though technically homebirths weren't being supported. So pretty much a freebirth in practice. But i never really had to think too much about it.[/quote]
Independent midwives cannot get insurance in the UK. This is a real pity - lots of great midwives were effectively put out of business because the actions of a few mavericks generated huge pay outs and put insurers off. But the upshot is that you will get no compensation if an IM's actions cause you or your baby an injury. The NHS will not compensate you because the IM is a private provider, even if the rest of your care has been on the NHS. This could cost you millions of pounds in the event of something going wrong- a pay out for (say) negligent brain damage to a baby can run into millions but an uninsured MW would have no means of paying out - you could take her assets, but they are going to be anywhere near what an insurer or the NHS would pay.

Obviously that isn't a problem if all goes well. But even experienced MWs can make mistakes. No amount of money can compensate for a severely injured child, but a multi million payout can secure that child's future.

@MrsNoah2020 I did not know that, very interesting. And worrying.

Nature taking its course often means a dead baby, a dead mother, or both.
Exactly.
I wonder how many of the 'it's natural... There's no need to intervene... Let nature to it's thing' people would refuse medical care.
No antibiotics for infections, after all infection is natural and our bodies have an immune system.
No chemo for cancer, after all it's natural cell development.
No folic acid in pregnancy, after all people managed to give birth to babies without it.

There seems to be something about birth that brings out all kinds of quack views and then some women think there's a golden uterus award for giving birth.

Current thinking is that it may be better to induce at 39 weeks in women over 35. So a long way before 42 weeks! They don't induce for the fun of it - I don't understand why people are so against it (apart from the pain obviously).

[quote Wolfgirrl]@MrsNoah2020 I did not know that, very interesting. And worrying.[/quote]
As of 2014, it is unlawful for an IM to practise without indemnity. It's not against the law to insure/indemnify an IM, so a few IMs have managed to band together and buy cover but most IMs have been unable to get indemnity/insurance for at least 10 years. That's why there are so few of them around these days.

A duola is a much safer option in this regard, because you still have an NHS mw and therefore access to payouts via NHS Resolution if things go wrong.

@LolaSmiles yes and to take it a step further, no toilets you gave to go in the woods.
No cars obviously, or houses, no farmed food, no TV or phones, no artificial light. Just living in a tent and going to bed when it gets dark.

I absolutely agree with you OP.
If she lived closer to a hospital, possibly.

weepingwillow22

Wow I'd no idea how much the risk of PPH increases for a fertility baby. I know my local hospital sees fertility treatment as a reason to induce as their was higher risk of things going wrong.

@MrsNoah2020

Not often, sometimes. If it was the case often, the human race would never have survived. Yes, there are risks to giving birth, but there is no need to overstate them. In the end, even in systems where the majority of women have no help or unqualified at best (note: that doesn't mean unskilled), the majority still gives birth without problems.

Blanket policies because they mitigate risks at population level don't do women any favours individually.

I had gestational diabetes with my last. Managed sterlingly by myself and my ob (not the diabetes clinic, if it was for them, I'd have had a huge baby). There was never talk of induction because it is unnecessary if there are no issues. The only condition was that it wasn't a big baby like my son. Same applies to age. A 35-year-old with no isdues shouldn't be induced because she's 35.
A woman should be left in peace, and that applies especially to women of a certain kind like me. Surprise me, stress me, put me under pressure and my cervix clams up. That's what my midwife thinks and she retired on 1 April this year after 44 years of delivering babies, half of that as a freelance midwife. I think the woman knows her stuff when she says both student midwives and women are being scared into hospital births and that women should be able to give birth as they see fit (selbsbestimmt) and not be forced into something someone else might want.

Obviously she would be completely against freebirthing, but from a human perspective she would understand, IMO, as she is frankly appalled by how things are managed here in Germany (and it's nothing like in the UK).

Very late to this and only read to p11 but to echo what a few posters have said could it be an abusive OH behind it. If there is any chance of that then for her sake I’d contact her midwife or SS. As a trainee solicitor 25 years ago I was involved in a court case. Always stayed with me. The mum was about 18 with much older and abusive partner. He’d forced her to give birth alone with him - it was only his baby if he delivered it. Had been dressed up as baby arrived quickly he’d been in local press as a hero for delivering baby but her medical notes showed she had been in labour for a long time with horrible birth related damage. He was abusive raping her anally with toilet brush so would have worried about her injuries being seen. She only spoke out when she read statement by his ex who said he had done same to her - ex was older and had already had 2 babies when she was forced to go through it. She reconciled with him part way through the case and was heavily pregnant with baby number two. I still sometimes wonder what happened to her. Some of the evidence was so horrible the older female barristers wouldn’t let me see.

Not often, sometimes. If it was the case often, the human race would never have survived

The maternal mortality rate for unassisted births (no trained assistant) is about 25/1000. That would translate to 16,427 deaths a year in the UK at current birth rates. I call that often.

The perinatal mortality rate in Pakistan is 40 per 1000 live births. Not all these deaths are preventable, but most are - as evidenced by the contrast with the UK, where the rate is 8. Globally, at least 1 million babies die in the first 24 hours of life each year. I call that often.