Freebirth. Fallen out with my friend. *title edited by MNHQ*

[whateveryouneed]

Friend is 3 months pregnant. We've been friends for around 5 years. Saw her today for the first time in 8 or so weeks. She was asking me about my pregnancy and son's birth. I was honest with her and told her how it went (she already knew a fair bit but not finer details). She said it scared her a bit hearing about my son being born blue and floppy, completely flatlined. He had to be intubated and resuscitated (he's 100% fine and healthy now).

The reason it scared her is because she's planning a freebirth. She wants to give birth in her bathtub at home (rural, about 18 miles from the nearest town, further from nearest hospital). She wants no medical assistance. Just her and her husband.

I told her (fairly firmly) that I think she needs to rethink that idea and that it could be really dangerous. She thinks that because she's not high risk (at the moment), that the chances of something going wrong are minimal. She thinks that if baby is head down that she will be fine.

AIBU to be really scared for her if she goes through with this? She's just told me she can't be friends with me throughout her pregnancy if I can't support her choice.

Not sure what to say or think...

tipsyandtim - that's a good point.

Ultimately medical professionals aren't perfect and labouring women aren't always listened to, far from it. I think it is improving but there is still some work to be done. Maybe when more respect is accorded to birthing mothers there will be little interest in free births.

I find it sad that even though everyone basically agrees that free births are a terrible idea, and that attendance by a medical professional is absolutely a good thing, this thread has still descended into nastiness about women's choices, home births, etc, and an absolute refusal to try and understand the reasons why some women might consider a free birth, even if we disagree with them.

Everyone who has tried to explain why some women might be afraid of hospital births and interventions has been shouted down.

The lack of tolerance for other points of view, the lack of imagination and empathy, the refusal to believe what others are saying - it doesn't surprise me but it does sadden me a lot.

I don't know if mumsnetters' attitudes towards pregnant women and their mental health have become nastier lately or if it's always been like this. But it's a crying shame for a forum which is mainly by and for mums and which can be a very supportive place.

@CarlottaValdez they brought the crash cart into the room and there were about 15 staff members working on her and immediately took her to scbu as she was not responding to resus. They just wheeled her down the corridor to scbu. The community unit was around 15 minutes away from the main hospital, she wasn't stable to transfer via ambulance when she was born. A consultant came down to see my sister an hour later and said that my niece had started to have gasping breaths but it took a long time.

Once she was stabilised and ventilated about 6 hours later, she was blue lighted to another hospital who could put her in the coma and bring her body temperature down to 34 degrees to minimise any further damage cause back lack of oxygen. She was fitting regularly in those early hours so they were concerned about irreparable brain damage through that and being starved of oxygen. If she'd have been born at a community birthing unit she would not have survived all of that.

My brother in law followed the ambulance and was told that if they pulled over not to stop but it would mean that she was being worked on.

NameChange30 - I agree.
I wouldn't choose a freebirth I don't think but I can understand why someone else might.
My ideal set up really is what was described upthread with a non interfering midwife in the next room but available whenever needed. That sounds perfect to me! I wish that would be given to me as an option in all honesty

I really agree with you Oblada. I really understand how shocking a choice it might feel for some women who have had their own difficult births but women are usually responsive to good care they can trust in and want to make good choices for themselves and their babies. There can be so many complex feelings around birth hearing the women involved is important. I have worked with Mws so skilled at engaging women who are hard to reach and their respect and lack of judgement for the person in front of them allows beautiful things to happen.

I dont think it matters if you are afraid of hospitals. There as so many ways around it; counselling, a midwife-attended home birth, MLU, even a caesarean under general anaesthetic if necessary (I know one person who chose this option for her mental health. Power to her in my opinion. She made a decision that was safe for both baby and her).

Choosing a freebirth probably makes it more likely you will need to go into hospital and stay for longer as whatever problem there is wont have been picked up quickly by a medical professional.

Im sorry but I cant do the whole empathy, 'your body your rules hun' thing when we are talking about chancing the life of an unborn defenceless baby. It needs to be called out for the sheer stupidity and selfishness it is.

I wouldn’t recommend a free birth, in the same way I wouldn’t recommend someone take their own adult tooth out or set a broken leg!

If you tear during a free birth does your partner get to practice their needlework skills? How would they know if their baby is in distress?

Hearing someone and walking alongside far from ‘your body your rules’ although philosophically that is legally and medically absolute. In the moment of birth medics will always prioritise the mother and doing this earlier involves listening not just reacting.

My mother's first child. At home. 3 miles from nearest hospital. No midwife until the last half hour of labour.. she called the ambulance and he was born on the way . They called him a 'blue baby' back then. Strangled by the cord. Full term . PM said heathy in all ways.

My brother would of been 61 last month. My mother thinks about him every day and will never forgive herself for not opting for hospital.

Quite simply he died because of a lack of professional help. Even if she had had a midwife earlier the outcome would have been different. The MW would have called the ambulance as soon as the heart rate indicated stress.

It's always those who have never had a baby that decide these 'trendy' methods are a good idea. It's all well in theory until your pregnancy results in a dead baby.

No OP I would NOT support her to be so irresponsible. If she carries on with her plan then I could not be friends with such an unmitigated fuckwit who wishes to gamble with their child's life because of some warped ideology.

@kikibo. The reason women were allowed to go into labour naturally 40 years ago is because:
There were no dating scans. With my last DC in 1986 I had no recollection of when my last period had been and didn't know when the baby was due. I had a couple of scans at supposedly 18 weeks and 36 weeks, but nobody could give me a due date.
There were no early pregnancy tests. I did one when I was two weeks late that was a clear negative. My DD has her MSc now!
Therefore as nobody knew when babies were actually due, the two weeks over rule was workable. My neighbour had hers at what she thought was 42 weeks plus and took loads of castor oil to get things started. She had a 4lb premature baby who was blue lighted to a neonatal unit.
Now people know to the day when the baby is due so being overdue is a genuine thing unlike the days of guesswork.

disorganised that's tragic, not only for your brother, but your mother too, carrying those feelings all her life.

Despite a lovely neighbour being a midwife and suggesting because I was low risk and so near the hospital (3 min drive) I should plan a home birth I opted for hospital. I don't know, something in me just wanted the security. I'm glad I did as I had a very long labour with a ventouse delivery, retained placenta, a 4 pint blood loss and blood transfusion and emergency surgery overnight. My friend who is a doctor said I would have died 30 years previously.

My.other 2 DC have popped out like shelling peas with no pain relief (in hosp, I had no choice anyway) but I still shudder.

Why all the negativity over post dates induction?? Don’t regret mine for a minute. Why even take the slight risk of chance of still birth??

@Wingingthis

Why all the negativity over post dates induction?? Don’t regret mine for a minute. Why even take the slight risk of chance of still birth??

I agree .. all three of mine were induced at 41 weeks. I was thrilled with the care I received.

@Wingingthis

Why all the negativity over post dates induction?? Don’t regret mine for a minute. Why even take the slight risk of chance of still birth??

Don't know why there is so much negativity around induction. All the negatively just scares people.

With DC1 I was terrified of induction. My thoughts weren't exactly rational. I'm just glad that my body played ball and things happened before Sunday.

DS2 I was induced, scared but I'd already given birth once. Which was no where near as bad as expected. Given all the induction horror stories, I was waiting on / expecting horrific pain, loads of interventions that I had no idea how close I was to giving birth.

That said I think even without the pessary my second active labour would have been quick so it probably a blessing for me I was induced.

No woman should ever feel frightened of health care professionals

Tbf I’ve had mainly very positive experiences with HCPs including in maternity care but from a lot of women’s stories I can see why a lot of them are distrustful or frightened.

There was also a discussion shared on twitter from an online forum for medical students. The topic was about non-consenting women under GA being used for students to practice vaginal exams on without their knowledge, the amount of med students on the thread defending it and declaring there was nothing wrong with it was pretty sickening Historically there has been a lot wrong with medical care and consent with women, particularly in childbirth and maternity settings. I think some women want the safety of hospital and drs but are simultaneously terrified about violation, having no autonomy/dignity and being harmed. I’ve felt safe and supported in labour but I know that’s not the case for all women.

Indeed, tipsyandtim.

Article shared by Birthrights, and their comment:

We are fortunate that in the UK we have not seen some of the practices highlighted in this paper, but the horrendous experience of pregnant women around the world during COVID highlights the fragility of women's rights in childbirth.
Covid-19 as a risk factor for obstetric violence

@disorganisedsecretsquirrel

My mother's first child. At home. 3 miles from nearest hospital. No midwife until the last half hour of labour.. she called the ambulance and he was born on the way . They called him a 'blue baby' back then. Strangled by the cord. Full term . PM said heathy in all ways.

My brother would of been 61 last month. My mother thinks about him every day and will never forgive herself for not opting for hospital.

Quite simply he died because of a lack of professional help. Even if she had had a midwife earlier the outcome would have been different. The MW would have called the ambulance as soon as the heart rate indicated stress.

It's always those who have never had a baby that decide these 'trendy' methods are a good idea. It's all well in theory until your pregnancy results in a dead baby.

No OP I would NOT support her to be so irresponsible. If she carries on with her plan then I could not be friends with such an unmitigated fuckwit who wishes to gamble with their child's life because of some warped ideology.

That's heartbreaking. I'm so sorry for your mother's loss x

My friend Free birthed during ‘lockdown’, she was fairly set but then the lockdown rules tipped her over the edge. It went from another planned homebirth to labour ward/ no partner.
I realised I would only lose her as a friend fighting it, and it was happening. I did talk to her about carrying on antenatal care (she did), rather than hiding away. I also made it clear I would be on the end of a phone/ turn up/ do whatever I could in the event of issues. That she wouldn’t be alone because of it, and I’d be the person to drive her to hospital in the dead of night without a single negative word if she realised during it she couldn’t do it.
I didn’t want to lose a friend, she knew my feelings so I could just help trying to make it safe.
I didn’t sleep for worry on the night waiting to hear she was ok, but she had the easiest birth ever.

@topseyandtim, were they UK medical students? The last time I saw a mention of practices like that various UK HCPs were adamant that nothing like that has happened in the UK for decades. If I recall correctly it's a different story in the US.

I think the chance of this Disney version of events actually happening is incredibly slim.

I wouldn't engage too much. I think trying to convince her will be a waste of time and only create bad blood. (Which I must admit I would find really hard when I think people are being rather arrogant and stupid.)

I think the chance of this Disney version of events actually happening is incredibly slim.

I wouldn't engage too much. I think trying to convince her will be a waste of time and only create bad blood. (Which I must admit I would find really hard when I think people are being rather arrogant and stupid.)

RainingMeatballs
I can kind of understand your friends logic.

However I think their is a line between birthing a second or third child at home in sanitary conditions and being prepared to call backup if necessary and Ops friend wanting (being pushed into) giving birth to a first baby by a river.

I mean really why would you consider that as a serious option. And it's just twigged she's 3months, so due around December.
So probably blowing a hoolie, tipping it down with rain. And a window of about 6 hours of daylight. So probably dull / dark light too.

Let's hope she either sees sense or manages to LTB who's pushing her into it.

RainingMeatballs - you've been a fantastic friend. That's what true friendship is about, well done!
I can definitely empathise with your friend's positions as I had that dilemma for a bit until they allowed homebirth again... I think I would have opted for an independent midwife but I'm lucky that we can afford it...

@Blackbear19 I guess I’d just keep the lines of communication open. Not charge in with horror stories. But engage with practicalities like you’ve said, how will she light it? Can she actually get an environment she wants at this time of year? What’s the back up? There’s time to gently lead someone through a mad plan to let it unfold as a mad plan.

Personally my number 3 was the crazy one, 15min birth with an unexpected 2L haemorrhage a few minutes after. Like a horror scene. But I try to be open minded and not project that