Is this Midwife out of line?

[SistineScreamer]

Curious as to what others would think. My daughter just had her first DC yesterday. She had an elective section and is still in hospital. My daughter is young, she’s 24, Not married (and has no intention to) but been with her DP since they were 16. She’s had some MH issues, stemmed from ex husband of mine. This is all noted in her file and is a manageable, she’s had to come off her medication during the pregnancy because of risks to the baby but she was more than willing to do this. She’s in a private room and not on a ward. All this information is important as I assume this is why she was treated the way she was.

She rang me 30 minutes ago in tears. Telling me one of the midwives assigned to her has been horrible to her. We’ll call her Midwife A.

All this is what she says happened - First, DD had baby in a onsie and bib, midwife A came in and commented that the bib was too big for baby, took baby out of DD’s arms and removed the bib. Even if the bib was too big why completely undermine her like that? Next, DD brought wipes for her face, body etc they were baby brand water wipes as her skin is overly sensitive to anything else. Midwife proceeded to lecture DD that these were wrong and cotton buds must be used with water instead, proceeded to bin wipes then leave the room.

Half an hour later Midwife A came back in to ask DD about her feeding choices. DD was sexually assaulted and does not feel comfortable breastfeeding, her choice. Midwife proceeded to give her the breast is best talk, asking why she wouldn’t consider breastfeeding, basically making her feel like shit for picking formula. DD mentioned she’d purchased a perfect prep machine for the formula (you know the ones that give the perfect shot of hot water at night so you don’t have to faff about with the kettle?) this woman nodded, left the room and came back 15 minutes later with a print out of the perfect prep machine....asking DD to confirm if this was what she was talking about. Nodding and tutting. What the fuck? Even if she wanted to know what DD was talking about, why print it out and bring it to her? Why not look it up herself?

Next issue came with the drip that was in DD’s hand, it was ripping the skin, physically pulling up the skin. She asked Midwife A if she could take it out or change it, to be told no nothing could be done. She’d just have to suck it up. An hour after she was told this another midwife came in, Midwife B, she begged midwife B to take it out and showed her what it was doing to her hand. Midwife B promptly took it out stating that there was no problem. Midwife A came back for her checks, asked DD what happened to the drop. DD explained that midwife B took it out, midwife A mumbled something about how that couldn’t be right and she’d have to check that ‘story’ right away.

DD is still vulnerable after birth, can’t move yet because of the catheter and has to be changed by this woman who she feels uncomfortable with and intimidated by. This woman has to handle her naked, change her sheets and I feel from what she’s saying it’s making her MH worse. She says she feels like Midwife A is talking about her with the other midwife (not B) on duty who she seems friendly with, shared looks, little smirks, off comments.

The looks and such could be DD’s dislike for this midwife raring up. But the rest, is this normal! I feel like she’s over stepped the mark and made my child feel low because of her age and choices. Should we ignore this?

I’m wondering if the reason the midwife says that she has read your DD’s file and (yet) is still advocating breastfeeding is because she thinks that despite her childhood history your DD now has a responsibility to move on and do what’s best for her own child now? Maybe that would explain the apparent inconsistency?

Given she's a midwife not a psychiatrist or psychologist I dont think that matters. I also think it's a dangerous idea. I did breastfeed and I hated every single second of it because of the memories/feelings. It didn't make me a better mother, it didn't make me bond, it made me very ill.

Complain ASAP don't let her have to deal with her on shift tomorrow as well?

@Tippexy maybe what’s best for her own child is a mentally healthy mother, not one struggling to breastfeed and reliving childhood trauma.

My mw was like this after I had my first. It was absolute hell.

I felt like a disaster of a mum for a long time afterwards.

She moaned about everything I did.

Thank you for your updates OP, glad to hear you are there now and your DD can rest. Absolutely appalling the way they've treated her. Sounds like you are a wonderful advocate for her during a time when she is extra vulnerable xx

I’d definitely complain. I had a c section 1 week ago with my first child. There was a midwife on the ward who was similarly rude and undermining of me - “telling me off” for various things. I may be a first time mum but I’m not an idiot. I think the main thing is there is a way of saying things to people. Anybody after having a child is going to be emotional/tired (especially at the moment no visitors etc) your daughter already has a history of mental health they should be extra understanding of this! Hopefully she will be out of hospital soon and home x

Yanbu op your poor daughter congratulations on the birth of your granddaughter!

Just wanted to add about the wipes. When I gave birth (10 weeks ago) the hospital wouldn't allow us to use cotton wool as they said guidance had changed. I had forgotten the wool, so asked them for some and they said they weren't allowed to provide it anymore.

I used my trusty aldi fragrance free wipes and they said that was fine.

I believe all woman should be supported to breast feed However more importantly I believe in womens authority, namely my body my choice. I am so glad that your daughter has you as her advocate, no women should ever be bullied. Ps congrats Granny x

OP, I've only just seen this thread and I'm glad you went in to deal with this. It's nowhere near good enough to question women on feeding like this. Getting a response "personal reasons" is a clear indicator that you should, um, do your job and read the notes. Even without the history your DD has, doing a printout of perfect prep machines and handing it to a women who's literally just had a baby is jaw-dropping. Then there's the rest! It's woeful.

It's such pot luck, who you get. I hope they're now taking this seriously and trying their best to fix this for your poor DD

Midwife A was way out of line and the complaint needs to be made.

None of the choices your daughter is making for her baby are putting baby at any risk that she needs to be lectured and bullied for. Just because in the Midwife's opinion it's not what she considers ideal is neither here nor there

I used a bib for feeding in the hospital. I was in for 3 days after birth.... no one said a word!!

I used water wipes too. Again no one said a word!!

I used formula.... I was asked my plan and I told them I was combi feeding and wanted help expressing to start with and only got support, no pressure. When I had to stop earlier than planned, I was sad and the midwives gave me reassurance!!! Opposite of your poor daughter

I did get the perfect prep speech. U learn to nod along and just say ok!

You have received terrible care. I hope it gets better

@SarahAndQuack

And btw, *@Annierose293*, your post resonated with me!

A friend of mine had her first baby aged 23, and like you she looked younger than her age. She'd been with her husband for eight years and they had a mortgage and steady jobs, but all through her pregnancy, the first question in appointments was always 'have you stopped smoking yet'. We were all bewildered her behalf, then she found out there was funding for an initiative in the area, to stop young mums from smoking. She fitted the 'young mum' category, so they just assumed she smoked! Then at some point, she'd ticked a box saying 'I have never made use of NHS services to quit smoking' (because she'd never smoked) and that had put her on some list to be constantly pestered about it.

It really stuck in my mind, because I remember how frustrating it was for her to find that half her appointments were taken up, not with medical care, but with lectures about not doing something she'd never done in the first place.

People definitely do stereotype younger mums. It is such a nasty thing.

I had my second at 26 but was still being asked for ID in shops so looked quite young. Wasn't married (by choice) but DP and I had been together 8 years and already had DD. We had our own business running successfully. However, again every time I visited MW, GP or anyone else I was asked was I still smoking and drinking and spoken to very slowly about the dangers. I would say every time that I did not smoke and never have done, and had stopped drinking prior to the pregnancy as my child was planned. Never got through to any of them. When I then had DS early, very early in fact, the consultant responsible for him actually commented "well you were told smoking and drinking in pregnancy was bad". I was dumbfounded when she said it, asking why she felt that was true in my case. Apparently it was across my notes that MW "constantly" told me and I refused to accept this was the case and denied it was an issue. I denied it was an issue as I didn't smoke and wasn't drinking, I was that militant in both pregnancies, I didn't even drink coffee let alone booze. She also assumed as I was Miss that I was a single mum and demanded a phone number for the child's father "if I knew who he was" and asked in front of a full bay of parents and neonatal babies did I have any STDs currently. Never heard them say the same to anyone else there other than another younger mum who I got really friendly with who was also a miss but had a long-term partner. When he was ready to go home I had to go to a meeting about it all as he had complex needs. A MW who o had never seen before starts on and on about being concerned I won't cope alone with two children, as I was "irresponsible" and "ignorant" of expert advice re the smoking and drinking. You'd have thought pregnant me was clubbing until 3am the way she was going on. DP demanded it all be removed from my and DS files and was told it was. Yet two years ago at a consultant appointment (new consultant) brought it up and treated me like shit so we asked for another person. They do indeed socially profile new mums. Young and unmarried equals thick chav who goes on a large one whilst upduffed and has no clue who her babies dad is and is full of STDs and thick. It's certainly something I've felt for a long time needs to be shone a light on but knowing overall how shit most Women's healthcare is I doubt it ever will be

@SistineScreamer

All, they were newborn bibs. Not sure what there is to shudder about? They were used when feeding and burping. Not constantly on the baby.

When my uncle was five, he was strangled to death by his own dressing gown cord. This is why I shuddered. This is why the thought of such an unnecessary item being out around a one day old baby’s neck makes me feel a little uneasy. Stop being so aggressive with me. I haven’t said anything inflammatory or rude. You’ve asked for opinions. This is mine.

No the subject of being treated like that as a 30+ married women I was that when I had my baby.
They were rude to me and my husband told him not to carry his baby put her in the cot .
They got totally stressed at me and lectured me for struggling to feed
One of then followed me into the toliet because I couldnt pee after birth and lectured me about the importance of seeing but I'd had nothing to drink.
Please dont think its your daughters age and material status
.I was treated appealing too

I’m wondering if the reason the midwife says that she has read your DD’s file and (yet) is still advocating breastfeeding is because she thinks that despite her childhood history your DD now has a responsibility to move on and do what’s best for her own child now?

Not up for the midwife to decide, formula is fine and in this case BFing would cause harm to the mother, which doesn't make it the best option.

@MulticolourMophead

(The individual points the midwife made were kinda right though, as someone upthread said. A newborn shouldn’t be in a bib; breast is much healthier than formula although obviously it wasn’t helpful to point that out to your daughter given the background; and wet wipes aren’t as good as freshly sterilised water on cotton wool, because once opened the wet wipes can mould fast. So the midwife does know her stuff the problem is how she is making your daughter feel.)

The wipes were not for the baby.

A newborn is fine in a bib 🙄 you aren't meant to leave a newborn unattended so what could possibly happen?! As long as you take it off for sleep it would be fine.

It doesn't matter what's "healthier" for baby. Baby will survive no matter how it's fed as have millions before 🙄

And I have never ever known wipes to go mouldy that's ridiculous 🙄🙄🙄 you wouldn't use them if they had

The wipe thing has nothing to do with mould (never known that to happen... wipes dry out never to mouldy). Traditional baby wipes contain soap which is too harsh on newborn skin, water wipes don't though and are suitable. And they weren't even for baby anyway!

There is no guidance anywhere I can find to say don't use bibs on a newborn and certainly none to say not for feeding! It's nonsense. Just an over opinionated MW!

I think the midwife sounds rude. Unfortunately I don't think she's particularly unusual for a post natal ward. I saw a consultant who told me that he thought midwives in post natal wards didn't truly love the job and he discharged his wife as soon as possible because it was such a horrible environment.

@SistineScreamer Firstly congratulations to you and your DD and her DP!

I can't help but relate a little. I was 24 when I had my eldest and had a bad experience on the post natal ward after DD was born. Over 10 years later I still remember, and in the grand scheme of things it wasn't nearly as bad as what your DD has experienced.

As a Senior Nurse I'd be extremely disappointed if any of my staff acted like that Midwife. You were right to complain and you are right to pursue it. And your DD is lucky to have you.

Now at 35 I am pregnant again. I may have been an adult when I had DD1 but I was still a vulnerable young woman. As an older (and far more assertive) woman now, there is no way I'd accept being treated in the same way as I had been before. But that's because I have more life and motherhood experience behind me. Your poor DD, I really feel for her.

This nhs trust even puts bibs on the what to bring to hospital for your baby list!!

https://www.thh.nhs.uk/documents/Patients/PatientLeaflets/maternity/Havinggbaby-whattoopackinnyourbag.pdf

Clearly they are not an nhs no no. You have had an over opinionated MW

I’m wondering if the reason the midwife says that she has read your DD’s file and (yet) is still advocating breastfeeding is because she thinks that despite her childhood history your DD now has a responsibility to move on and do what’s best for her own child now?

Ah that's the secret, move on! If only psychiatrists and mental health professionals knew that, everyone would be cured!

When I had DS, my first, I was recovering from a 2.5 day induction, forceps delivery, third degree tear and a 3 litre haemorrhage. I was very keen on breastfeeding but was struggling and DS had a tongue tie. I'd seen a couple of midwives including the breastfeeding midwife but had started to introduce formula.

One day whilst still in hospital dh, who had been staying in my private room, nipped into town for some bits as we were in hospital longer than we'd anticipated. He'd left me some of those little, ready made bottles with the teat next to my bed in case while he was away. I was struggling to move, possibly still had my catheter. The breastfeeding midwife came into see me, I was actually breastfeeding DS at the time, she saw the little bottles of (unopened) formula on the side and told me she ought to throw them away. At the time I was an exhausted, overwhelmed new mother in pain and said nothing, I'm not confrontational either, but even now I feel very angry about that comment.

She treated me like I was doing something wrong, giving your baby formula is obviously not negligent or illegal.

I'm sorry this has happened to your daughter, I hope she gets home soon.

Hope you have all had a reasonable night op.

Something really does need to be done about midwives and both their competence and conduct where women are concerned. Reflecting back there's no way they would get away with it if women had babies towards the end of their adult lives rather than the beginning.

I think they are horrible to everyone to be fair. We were mid thirties, had a lively home, married, articulate, professional jobs and they made snide, bitchy comments about that. When I was of with ds2 one little madam refused to write that I'd bottlefeed in my notes having been told what happened with ds1, and it included infective mastitis and an abscess. Having had conversation about the house, my husband's job, etc, etc, then turned round and asked if the baby had the same father as ds1. I wear a wedding ring, our dating wedding photos were up, and she got very arsy when I said "I think it would be a little difficult to get divorced, meet a new man and remarry in two years, don't you? She had an issue because I was late 30s, established, married and lived in a nice house. They love having a dig. After that I knocked the informal, chatty relationships on the head. Nurses are there to do a job and provide a service. The NHS is only free at the point of delivery. If it depended upon the patient transferring money personally, the culture would soon change.

I think you are doing a great job @SistineScreamer.

I had severe pre natal depression with my second child, I'm sure it contributed to the poor post natal care I received. I wish I'd complained but after a haemorrhage I was just too tired.

Midwife A is horrible, I'm sorry. She's one of Those Midwives. There are some. A cohort of them. I encountered a couple. Absolutely domineering, practically abusive.

Everything she has done has been wrong. Of course she shouldn't have snatched Baby and of course the bib didn't matter. Ditto the rest. And the BF talk is worst.

She's angry. The drip issue was punishment for not breastfeeding.

Go in, explain all and say this midwife is not to deal with your DD any more.

Midwife A is horrible, I'm sorry. She's one of Those Midwives. There are some. A cohort of them. I encountered a couple. Absolutely domineering, practically abusive.

Everything she has done has been wrong. Of course she shouldn't have snatched Baby and of course the bib didn't matter. Ditto the rest. And the BF talk is worst.

She's angry. The drip issue was punishment for not breastfeeding.

Go in, explain all and say this midwife is not to deal with your DD any more.