Is this Midwife out of line?

[SistineScreamer]

Curious as to what others would think. My daughter just had her first DC yesterday. She had an elective section and is still in hospital. My daughter is young, she’s 24, Not married (and has no intention to) but been with her DP since they were 16. She’s had some MH issues, stemmed from ex husband of mine. This is all noted in her file and is a manageable, she’s had to come off her medication during the pregnancy because of risks to the baby but she was more than willing to do this. She’s in a private room and not on a ward. All this information is important as I assume this is why she was treated the way she was.

She rang me 30 minutes ago in tears. Telling me one of the midwives assigned to her has been horrible to her. We’ll call her Midwife A.

All this is what she says happened - First, DD had baby in a onsie and bib, midwife A came in and commented that the bib was too big for baby, took baby out of DD’s arms and removed the bib. Even if the bib was too big why completely undermine her like that? Next, DD brought wipes for her face, body etc they were baby brand water wipes as her skin is overly sensitive to anything else. Midwife proceeded to lecture DD that these were wrong and cotton buds must be used with water instead, proceeded to bin wipes then leave the room.

Half an hour later Midwife A came back in to ask DD about her feeding choices. DD was sexually assaulted and does not feel comfortable breastfeeding, her choice. Midwife proceeded to give her the breast is best talk, asking why she wouldn’t consider breastfeeding, basically making her feel like shit for picking formula. DD mentioned she’d purchased a perfect prep machine for the formula (you know the ones that give the perfect shot of hot water at night so you don’t have to faff about with the kettle?) this woman nodded, left the room and came back 15 minutes later with a print out of the perfect prep machine....asking DD to confirm if this was what she was talking about. Nodding and tutting. What the fuck? Even if she wanted to know what DD was talking about, why print it out and bring it to her? Why not look it up herself?

Next issue came with the drip that was in DD’s hand, it was ripping the skin, physically pulling up the skin. She asked Midwife A if she could take it out or change it, to be told no nothing could be done. She’d just have to suck it up. An hour after she was told this another midwife came in, Midwife B, she begged midwife B to take it out and showed her what it was doing to her hand. Midwife B promptly took it out stating that there was no problem. Midwife A came back for her checks, asked DD what happened to the drop. DD explained that midwife B took it out, midwife A mumbled something about how that couldn’t be right and she’d have to check that ‘story’ right away.

DD is still vulnerable after birth, can’t move yet because of the catheter and has to be changed by this woman who she feels uncomfortable with and intimidated by. This woman has to handle her naked, change her sheets and I feel from what she’s saying it’s making her MH worse. She says she feels like Midwife A is talking about her with the other midwife (not B) on duty who she seems friendly with, shared looks, little smirks, off comments.

The looks and such could be DD’s dislike for this midwife raring up. But the rest, is this normal! I feel like she’s over stepped the mark and made my child feel low because of her age and choices. Should we ignore this?

She’s giving lip service-she’s saying all the right things to move a difficult ‘customer’ on

You have just made this up though, haven't you?

You should really take a look at the tone of your own posts.

Real abuse, real consistent or serious (or even moderate) failures in care - I totally understand why you’d complain. But this IS minor when looked at objectively and will come to nothing - and it all just seems pointless to me.

You are very ignorant. That's not your fault, but it's still the case.

People can and do complain about much more minor failures than what the OP describes, and get results. And that is a good thing! A vulnerable woman who's just had a baby deserves to be listened to. A lot of healthcare professionals would want to help.

When my DD was born, we experienced some bad treatment, and we also thought maybe it wasn't bad enough to complain about. I happened to talk about it online, because it helped me process things. That was three years ago, and I still get NHS professionals contacting me to ask if they could quote me for their students, or saying they're shocked and upset at what happened. And what happened with us really wasn't very different from what happened to the OP's DD.

A lot of medical professionals will want this sort of bad experience to be registered, so it can be changed in the future.

How is your DD now OP?
I hope you are both able to get some rest.

@SistineScreamer

This woman hasn’t read DD’s file or about her MH or previous abuse. Yet continued to harass her? Why is that acceptable?
It’s not

Why is she allowed to touch my DD’s property?
She’s not

Why do you think it’s alright for her to snatch/take my DD’s baby from her without permission?
I don’t

My DD is already vulnerable. Yet not worthy of decent treatment?
Those are your words, not mine.

Not sure what other answers you want from me. I’ve said a few times it doesn’t sound like the mw was great.

You’ve complained, had your apology. You seem to be out for blood though and, like I said, it’s the tone of your posts and the reply from the ward sister that indicate to me that you are actually being hard work, hence my YABU answer.

Singing, she is asleep. I think she feels calmer with me here and I'm on night feeds for DGC so DD can rest. They have been waking her up every hour to monitor her blood pressure so broken sleep plus new baby wasn't helping her at all.

I'm much calmer as well. Though I have noted everything that happened in great detail in my notes app.

Midwives as a collective have a well earned very negative reputation, it seems to attract a lot of wagons.

One of my sisters is a midwive and lacks empathy, is sneery about patients and colleagues and would be the last person I'd want if I was in labour.

It's disgusting to see some posters think the way midwife A treated the OP's DD is acceptable, it really shows the sort of person they are.

Actually, TERF, it was your own tone and words that indicated you didn't think my girl was worthy of human decency. You said yourself, we shouldn't complain as it isn't a real complaint. The treatment wasn't 'ideal' but no one died so move on, yeah? That's the tone of your posts.

If you don't believe any of this is acceptable yet still don't think I should complain then I'm not sure what your point is?

This could damage my DD's MH, send her spiralling again because this woman decided not to be 'ideal'. Do you have any idea how long it's taken to get where we are? And now without her meds for 9 months, under close supervision she's been doing so well. For this to possibly tip her because a midwife decided not to read her file? Ridiculous.

Ward sister apologised and has said about opening an investigation - she's complying with CALM guidelines for complaints. Not because I'm being 'difficult'. 🤦🏼‍♀️

A lot of medical professionals will want this sort of bad experience to be registered, so it can be changed in the future

I think you’re naive.

Most medical professionals i know want to get on with their job in peace and would have little interest in pursuing one individual HCP through any type of disciplinary procedure for the ‘crimes’ the op has stated she has committed.

That’s not as popular a reply as those saying ‘of COURSE raise it, change WILL happen’ but it is the truth.

The NHS have bigger fish to fry than a tutting MW who talked about bf too much and threw a packet of wipes out.

Sleep deprivation doesn't help anyone's mental health. It's good that you are there.

Am glad she's been able to get to sleep Sistine and I hope you get a sensible outcome with the ward sister.

Terf complaints as you would know are not just about resolution but learning and improving. Your perspective that after one conversation the ward sister is ' moving on a difficult customer' either means the NHS/this trust doesn't embody a learning and continuous improvement culture or your own workplace culture doesn't (or possibly both). The OP hasn't been baying for blood. She's highlighted extremely poor practice and care.

I had a c section recently and saw about half a dozen midwifes in my stay. They were all fantastic. Then along came Nurse Ratched.

She was an absolute bloody nightmare - kept telling me off like a little kid. Everything I did was wrong and she took great delight in telling me so. I was messaging my partner at 5am without a wink of sleep - just couldn't hack it anymore.

She made a remark about DD must be my first and I finally answered back, politely explaining that no, she wasn't. I have a son, and managed to breastfeed him just fine, but thankyou very much for trying to help.

I hate any sort of confrontation but she did a complete u-turn and started being nice after that. She'd told me off for daring to wear my own pants, ffs. I'm forty bloody two!

I was really upset about it for days afterwards. And then I just let it go. It's not worth letting it sour the birth of your child. Now I just think maybe she was trying to help. Who knows. Who cares.
Doesn't really matter anymore.

Not to play down how upset your daughter's experience because I know how she felt. I just decided she wasn't very good and let it go.

She has not read my DD’s file, clearly doesn’t know about her MH or abuse history or doesn’t give a shit, yet kept insisting on BFing after DD tried to hint at personal reasons. That should be enough. Doesn’t take 5 stars to brush up on her patient’s files and history.*

In fact, your daughter doesn’t need to justify her choosing not to breast feed to the midwife or anyone else. She doesn’t want to, end of discussion. She doesn’t need a reason. It’s entirely her choice.

TERF, you're little minimising what's happened tho? She constantly harassed an abuse victim. A vulnerable person. This isn't a case of someone being told off and having a little cry. Does it make you feel better making issues like these out to be smaller, less important? Perhaps that's how you cope when you dismiss something like this.

I don't think the whole NHS is going to collapse to the ground apologising or that change will happen but why would I do nothing because of that attitude? It just sets a tone that it is acceptable as it's not a 'real' issue.

@OhTheRoses

A dear friend of mine holds a director level position at a Hospital Trust. She has told me that midwives are a very difficult section of the staff and known quietly as "madwives" amongst senior staff. Proportionately they are ruder, have higher levels of disciplinaries and never stop moaning compared to other branches of nursing.

I’m sure there are some lovely midwives. However, when I did my student nurse training I did an eight week obstetric placement. All I will say is, those eight weeks were the most miserable and unpleasant of my entire three year training.

Were the wipes in the bin?

Midwife seems like a right nasty cow and I'm so glad you went in and spoke up for your daughter OP. I was 22 when I had DS and I've never needed my mum as much as I did then.

Like a PP said, even without your DDs history, she shouldn't be having bf rammed down her throat. I had the same thing but I chose not to do it because I didn't want to. I was harangued about it for the three days I was in there

As for the sucking up pain and disposing of possessions, it's outragous

Congratulations on your GC

Does it make you feel better making issues like these out to be smaller, less important? Perhaps that's how you cope when you dismiss something like this

Your posts about the situation and now this one ^ all seem to confirm that you do indeed go into ‘attack’ mode as default.

Implying that my character is somehow lacking as I’ve disagreed with you only reinforces that. I wish you luck in your complaint, although I feel your efforts would be more productively spent on your dd.

And your tone, TERF, once again send like you ignore and splice a situation to suit yourself. I hope you gain a bit more empathy.

I wonder if she is picking on her because she is a younger mum and vulnerable. Some women are just so mean.
I don’t blame your daughter for not speaking up- I probably would have at 24 either and especially not if it was my first baby.
With my second I used water wipes for the baby (I know they were for your DD in this case) and would have totally ignored anyone who told me not to- gone and got them back out the bin myself.
One thing about getting older is you get the confidence to tell people where to go. When I was 24 I wouldn’t have been able to.
If it were my DD I would be in there wanting to fave up to this woman myself

OP, I’m so glad you’re there for your DD. I wish all new mums with MH difficulties had a mother like you to fight their corner and stand up for their dignity.

I think midwifery is institutionally misogynistic. Obviously there are individuals who are excellent but the generally dismissive attitude towards women’s pain, personal boundaries and preferences seems to be contagious.

Hi @SistineScreamer

Apologies as before I even write this I imagine it's going to be quite long. However, tl;dr - I absolutely am on your side and I believe you should take your complaints further.

I was under the care of a perinatal mental health team during my pregnancy, because of my OCD and anxiety issues. I also, like your DD, needed to stop taking my usual medication, although in my case I was prescribed a different one as it was still important I kept my condition under control.

I had a twin pregnancy, that isn't really too relevant as I don't believe it minimises what your DD is going through but for me, it was definitely an important factor.

My hospital stay was absolutely horrendous after giving birth. To this day I maintain that I would do pregnancy again, I would do childbirth again, but my reasons for not wanting to have any more children are solely rooted in my postnatal experience at the hospital.

Unlike your DD, I was 31 when I gave birth. To be honest, I don't think your daughter's age would change how they're treating her. The issue is her being a FTM with mental health issues making her vulnerable.

I desperately wanted to breastfeed my twins. The midwives did NOT want this. There was one breastfeeding specialist that I asked to see after I realised that I was not going to get support from anybody else. But even after having her guidance, the midwives made my life hell if I continued trying to breastfeed. T1 was in NICU for a short while and required a feeding tube. When he was returned to me I attempted to breastfeed him, having already successfully started breastfeeding T2. Long story short, both babies were stopped from breastfeeding. I was told that if I continued trying, they would put the babies both on feeding tubes and I would need to keep them in hospital indefinitely, as I was endangering them, starving them and not allowing them to regain their birth weight. They insisted not only that I formula fed but that I used Cow and Gate formula only. I wanted to change to aptamil and they told me I would make the babies sick. The breastfeeding specialist created a chart for me to keep on the wall to explain my combination feeding plan to the midwives. They took it off the wall.

I was kept in hospital for over two weeks after giving birth and every single day was living hell. The babies couldn't sleep in that environment meaning I literally went for days on end without any sleep. I required a blood transfusion and the midwives point blank refused to help me to care for the babies while I was hooked up.

I regularly looked up to find I was being watched. One night, a midwife came and told me she needed to do the babies' observations. She stood there, looked at my son intently and then silently walked away. If DP hadn't have been there with me I would have thought I dreamed that. It scared me sick.

I was barked at for 'falling asleep' holding the baby because I was looking down studying my daughter's face while I was breastfeeding her. I was constantly told I was holding them wrong and was going to injure them. I wasn't allowed to leave the hospital, even for fresh air.

At one point DP had enough and raised a concern with somebody. Later that same day, a group of midwives visited us, led by a senior one, to inform us that they had concerns with our attitude and behaviour on the ward. To this day I still don't know what we were supposed to have done.

After 14 days of this hell, I broke down. I cried and I couldn't physically stop myself. I was completely hysterical, sleep deprived, anxious, nauseous. I called my perinatal mental health midwife, who visited the hospital and created a plan with the midwives to finally allow me to leave. When I did leave, I had developed agoraphobia and that still affects me to this day. I had never had a problem like that in my life until that point.

Had it not been for my mother and DP, I would have broken down completely. I did everything I could to put that experience behind me but reading your post stirred up so many emotions that I feel sick just writing this.

You sound like you are confident and focused. Please do complain. Please fight for your daughter right now while she can't.

I have no idea how or why some people have these experiences in hospital at a time when they are at their most vulnerable and should be enjoying their new baby. But I saw with my own eyes that some of the midwives had an axe to grind and regardless of why that is, it needs to stop.

I hope you get her out soon. Yes I would complain.

Re the wipes, I remember dutifully attempting to remove meconium with cotton wool and water... I got about 1/8 of the way through before resorting to wipes!

@Beebeet The wipes were not even for the baby, they were for the mother but the midwife told her she should not have them and could only use cotton wool. She then put them in the bin.

I’m wondering if the reason the midwife says that she has read your DD’s file and (yet) is still advocating breastfeeding is because she thinks that despite her childhood history your DD now has a responsibility to move on and do what’s best for her own child now? Maybe that would explain the apparent inconsistency?