Is this Midwife out of line?

[SistineScreamer]

Curious as to what others would think. My daughter just had her first DC yesterday. She had an elective section and is still in hospital. My daughter is young, she’s 24, Not married (and has no intention to) but been with her DP since they were 16. She’s had some MH issues, stemmed from ex husband of mine. This is all noted in her file and is a manageable, she’s had to come off her medication during the pregnancy because of risks to the baby but she was more than willing to do this. She’s in a private room and not on a ward. All this information is important as I assume this is why she was treated the way she was.

She rang me 30 minutes ago in tears. Telling me one of the midwives assigned to her has been horrible to her. We’ll call her Midwife A.

All this is what she says happened - First, DD had baby in a onsie and bib, midwife A came in and commented that the bib was too big for baby, took baby out of DD’s arms and removed the bib. Even if the bib was too big why completely undermine her like that? Next, DD brought wipes for her face, body etc they were baby brand water wipes as her skin is overly sensitive to anything else. Midwife proceeded to lecture DD that these were wrong and cotton buds must be used with water instead, proceeded to bin wipes then leave the room.

Half an hour later Midwife A came back in to ask DD about her feeding choices. DD was sexually assaulted and does not feel comfortable breastfeeding, her choice. Midwife proceeded to give her the breast is best talk, asking why she wouldn’t consider breastfeeding, basically making her feel like shit for picking formula. DD mentioned she’d purchased a perfect prep machine for the formula (you know the ones that give the perfect shot of hot water at night so you don’t have to faff about with the kettle?) this woman nodded, left the room and came back 15 minutes later with a print out of the perfect prep machine....asking DD to confirm if this was what she was talking about. Nodding and tutting. What the fuck? Even if she wanted to know what DD was talking about, why print it out and bring it to her? Why not look it up herself?

Next issue came with the drip that was in DD’s hand, it was ripping the skin, physically pulling up the skin. She asked Midwife A if she could take it out or change it, to be told no nothing could be done. She’d just have to suck it up. An hour after she was told this another midwife came in, Midwife B, she begged midwife B to take it out and showed her what it was doing to her hand. Midwife B promptly took it out stating that there was no problem. Midwife A came back for her checks, asked DD what happened to the drop. DD explained that midwife B took it out, midwife A mumbled something about how that couldn’t be right and she’d have to check that ‘story’ right away.

DD is still vulnerable after birth, can’t move yet because of the catheter and has to be changed by this woman who she feels uncomfortable with and intimidated by. This woman has to handle her naked, change her sheets and I feel from what she’s saying it’s making her MH worse. She says she feels like Midwife A is talking about her with the other midwife (not B) on duty who she seems friendly with, shared looks, little smirks, off comments.

The looks and such could be DD’s dislike for this midwife raring up. But the rest, is this normal! I feel like she’s over stepped the mark and made my child feel low because of her age and choices. Should we ignore this?

Sorry - didn't mean to be quite so emphatic as to post twice!! 😂

I agree @OhTheRoses. To have a disproportionately high number of crap ones, I wonder where the issue is. Is it training? I doubt many people go into it when they don't feel passionate about supporting women as it's really competitive to get a place at uni, and it's strange that so many people have similar experiences, when this isn't the case with other healthcare professionals.

Sorry - didn't mean to be quite so emphatic as to post twice!! 😂

My mother still gets upset about her experience having me nearly 40 years ago. The midwife was very dismissive, harsh and unforgiving so much so that my mum refused to go back to that hospital and had my siblings in a different one.
She is a very balanced reasonable person but states to this day that this midwife ruined her postnatal experience, made her feel useless and inadequate and was on a power trip.

I am sorry that your daughter has experienced this and well done to you for being her advocate at such a vulnerable time.

My mother still gets upset about her experience having me nearly 40 years ago. The midwife was very dismissive, harsh and unforgiving so much so that my mum refused to go back to that hospital and had my siblings in a different one.
She is a very balanced reasonable person but states to this day that this midwife ruined her postnatal experience, made her feel useless and inadequate and was on a power trip.

I am sorry that your daughter has experienced this and well done to you for being her advocate at such a vulnerable time.

OP you have done a marvellous job advocating for your daughter please do continue and don't at people on a forum not getting it.

@Beebeet

I agree *@OhTheRoses*. To have a disproportionately high number of crap ones, I wonder where the issue is. Is it training? I doubt many people go into it when they don't feel passionate about supporting women as it's really competitive to get a place at uni, and it's strange that so many people have similar experiences, when this isn't the case with other healthcare professionals.

Definitely training

I’m wondering if the reason the midwife says that she has read your DD’s file and (yet) is still advocating breastfeeding is because she thinks that despite her childhood history your DD now has a responsibility to move on and do what’s best for her own child now?

No one has a responsibility to breastfeed.

I've seen some nasty comments over the years about people who don't breastfeed but this beats them all.

OP not only is your daughter. New mum and had a bad experience she's being monitored for other health reasons, she's being woken every hour for BP. Well done on staying with her. I had a 4 hour cycle as my daughter was in intensive care, it's the most tired and emotional I have ever felt. I had my DH with me. I hope your daughter is ok and gets to go home soon.

Well done for advocating for your daughter. I am in no way vulnerable but found the post natal experience utterly dreadful. I was in for 4 days and on one night I left a message for my husband in tears because I felt so bullied by the midwives in charge that night. He turned up at 3am and i just remember feeling so grateful he was there to stick up for me. The difference being is that was just one night for me. The staff for the rest of the time were kind at least. I felt very pressured re breastfeeding (it wasn’t working). I also don’t think it’s good enough for some people to say ‘she might be emotional and taking things the wrong way.’ That is the very reason women should be treated with absolute kindness after giving birth. It is an emotional time and too many have utterly horrific experiences of lost natal care.

But has anyone ever noticed them whenever a thread pops up about MWs and general pre and postnatal care, there are always, always, lots and lots of us who have been treated appallingly, some to the point of ending up with MH issues as a direct result of being undermined and all but abused by people who are supposed to hold a position of trust and care.
Why is this a thing? And why does it always seem to be the case across women's health services? How many of us hate and put off going to our GP because we genuinely don't want to end up back on the same roundabout of shit treatment and nasty behaviour?
I genuinely will do all in my power to avoid going to the GP or the hospital. I can honestly say in the times I have had to reach out for further services outside of my GP, I can think of mostly awful, dismissive and rude lack of care.
Currently, I think I have the hangover on my lungs from CV19. I've not had a positive test having had what I am sure was it in late December but know of people I see daily who have indeed now had positive antibody tests. It's recently been discussed that it can scar lungs and I find it impossible to so much as walk round the block or be on my feet all day without feeling like I can't breathe and being tired all the time. I'm a previously fit healthy woman with no issues.
DP wants me to go to the GP. I personally don't see the point. I've not had a positive test so they will deny all knowledge. The last time I went with endo pain and Pcos which I've still had no help with managing despite being diagnosed ten years ago (after asking for 5 years due to symptoms) I was forced to take a pregnancy test as the GP decided I was unmarried so must be dim and pregnant. She refused to listen to me that it was the usual severe pain caused by this. She talked to me like I was a 14 year old, not a 35 year old mother of two. And even when I gave it to shut her up, she did nothing further and said take paracetamol.

I actually feel strongly that MN needs to start a campaign. There is enough of us on here who have and continue to have poor experiences using the NHS. There needs to be an investigation into why, and a drive to tell women yes they should complain every time.

@isabellerossignol

I’m wondering if the reason the midwife says that she has read your DD’s file and (yet) is still advocating breastfeeding is because she thinks that despite her childhood history your DD now has a responsibility to move on and do what’s best for her own child now?

No one has a responsibility to breastfeed.

I've seen some nasty comments over the years about people who don't breastfeed but this beats them all.

Not only that but 'what's best for the child' is a comfortable and well adjusted mother. If that means formula feeding to avoid rekindling abuse experiences then that's admirable IMO, it speaks volumes that she was able to make that decision and stick to it despite the backlash, because she wants to be at her best psychologically to care for the baby. Breast can't always be 'best'.

In response to op, I was 22 when I had DS1 some nearly 15 years ago. The labour ward midwives were lovely, but on recovery I found it a stark contrast.
A really horrible mw was very judgy and criticised everything I did. She insisted on 'helping' me bf by handing my boob and baby very roughly with yellowed nicotine fingers to which I objected. My complaining made her worse.

When DS was 18m he was very poorly and despite keep taking him to the doctor no one would listen to me and I was patronised. Eventually my mum helped me to get him seen by which point he was so poorly a paramedic actually checked him in to hospital where he needed to stay for a week on IV antibiotics.

I hope you do/have complain as i never did and others probably suffered because i didn't speak up.

Well OP, frankly I wouldn’t give two shiny shits if there are two sides to this or not. Your daughter is a new, vulnerable young mother and I would absolutely be speaking to the head midwife about what’s going on.

As as sexual assault victim myself, I was also unable to breastfeed, I did try but it made me feel physically unwell to the point of throwing up. Unfortunately my breasts and feelings towards them had been sexualised at a young age and I couldn’t get past that to breastfeed my children.

I agree, the midwife is doing her job. However her bedside manner leaves a lot to be desired. There was a marked difference in how I was treated from having my 1st DS to my 4th. I remember with my 4th the midwife came to see me, looked at my notes and said, oh this is your fourth so you know what your doing and off she went. No trying to force breastfeeding down my neck and so forth.

I’m not sure what MH issues your DD suffers from however giving birth can sometimes trigger or exacerbate existing conditions. I think you most definitely need a talk with the midwives that are caring for your daughter.

@PrayingandHoping

The wipe thing has nothing to do with mould (never known that to happen... wipes dry out never to mouldy). Traditional baby wipes contain soap which is too harsh on newborn skin, water wipes don't though and are suitable. And they weren't even for baby anyway!

There is no guidance anywhere I can find to say don't use bibs on a newborn and certainly none to say not for feeding! It's nonsense. Just an over opinionated MW!

I forgot to mention this in my post last night. For some reason, I didn't want to use a bib when feeding my babies in the hospital. I had bibs along with everything else but I didn't want to use them. I was happy to keep a cloth handy and change their clothes regularly. That was another thing I was pulled up on and forced to do. My babies were premature, the bibs were too big on them, but the midwives would have scolded me if I DIDN'T use them. I honestly think when people are like this then you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. I think the only way OPs DD could have rectified that situation to the satisfaction of the midwives would have been to get out a sewing kit and begin altering the bibs by hand. And then of course... she would be neglecting the baby and would be told in no uncertain terms what a failure she is.

@SuckingDownDarjeeling we had the too big bib issue too.... luckily a quick trip to local mothercare in the morning DH found some better ones

A too big a bib used while feeding though still is not dangerous.... it's just ineffective and a pain!

What a mess, I feel so sorry for your daughter an absolute amazing experience has been tarnished for her. The midwife did not handle any of it well. I feel so sorry for your daughter regardless of what happened. I hope it doesn't knock her confidence, what a shame.

The midwife sounds awful. I experienced a difficult midwife during the birth of my second child. I was in agony and felt like I was further along in my labour than she did. I kept asking for pain relief during the night and she treated me as if I was an overreacting child. She even told me not to waste dh’s time bringing him back as it would be ages yet. Fortunately dh rang me and could tell something wasn’t right. She only actually listened when dh came back to the hospital, took one look at me and asked why she had allowed me to get in that state. He demanded a second opinion and low and behold I was nearly ready to give birth. In all that time she never even examined me.

I was 29, and not particularly shy and retiring but in that situation you defer to the experts and it’s often difficult to speak up. She has persistently harassed your daughter to suit her own agenda simply because she can and you are absolutely right to report this. I didn’t, even after my own community midwife - who had been with me my entire pregnancy and afterwards, and knew I wasn’t one to make a fuss over nothing - advised me that I should. At the time I was grateful that dc was safe and well and just wanted to forget it.

There is no way in hell that she would behave like this around a middle class older mother. She is choosing her victims carefully which is even more abhorrent. This woman is a bully and should not be around vulnerable young mothers.

it’s the op’s tone that makes me think she is probably bu tbh

Oh the tone police. Shut up women, know your place, be grateful for whatever is tossed your way and always smile and "be kind". If you complain you are "hysterical". If you have mH issues great, we can ignore you even more easily.

Don't complain because we won't change anything but if you do we will send you a platitude for our fellow complaint ignorers to snigger at and then still won't change anything.

Gosh, its so hard to work out how scandals such as Shrewsbury and Telford occur.

Its 2020 and we are still telling women to shut up and mind their tone.

I was treated like shit after the birth of my 3rd, at 35 I wasn't a young or inexperienced mum but that's how I was treated. My son had breathing problems and trouble feeding, I kept expressing my concerns but was told he was fine, I was delicious from lack of sleep because I kept trying to feed and he wasn't getting anything. Midwife had a go at me saying his mouth is dry! Well I was doing what I could. After the birth the midwife was determined she wasn't going to help me shower. Left me in a pool of my own blood on the bed. Some really need to learn bedside manner

Delirious* 🙄

Yes she should complain, yes breastfeeding is better but it's a choice and no one should be pressured into it or made to feel bad if they cant or dont want to. Also she had no right to chuck her wipes in the bin regardless of if they were fir her or baby. They were hers not the midwives. There are ways of saying things. She could have just explained it's better for babies to use cotton wool and then she would have found out they weren't for the baby. Though personally I've usee wipes since newborn (pampers sensitive!) And my baby has never had a sore bum. And yes the prep machines aren't meant to be very hygienic and I have heard of babies getting I'll from them but again theres ways if saying things and she could have just talked to her about it nicely instead of tutting. She is a first time Mum how is she meant to just know everything?

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

She wasn't remotely aggressive, don't be ridiculous. And your opinion, in context, was incredibly callous. You're gas lighting.

Oh I'm so sorry for your daughter dealing with this hateful woman. It makes me so angry! This is the kind of shit that leaves a lasting mark on anyone, your full support is what will make the difference here. Thank goodness you are on her side
(Don't pay attention or keep responding to the scaremongering posters here who, like bully midwife, also get a kick out of having digs at vulnerable new mothers. It says everything there is to know about them.)

@SistineScreamer First, congratulations to you, your dd and her dp. Please ignore the minority on this thread who are so ignorant that they cannot see how wrong this midwife was. Your dd is entitled to make the choices she wants to, over feeding her dc, end of story. I agree that a midwife should give advice over bf, however once your dd has said no that should be it, irrespective of your dd’s MH problems. Your dd is very vulnerable and for this person to treat her like this is dreadful.

Please encourage your dd to put in a complaint about this MW. However, and I speak from personal experience, do not be surprised if they close ranks! Unfortunately, as you have already perceived, this situation will likely not be recorded in full in your daughter’s notes, so make your own notes on what has happened, who was there (make sure you know the names of the staff) and who you spoke to.

Hopefully your dd will be home soon and this will not have any lasting effect on her and her MH.