Is this Midwife out of line?

[SistineScreamer]

Curious as to what others would think. My daughter just had her first DC yesterday. She had an elective section and is still in hospital. My daughter is young, she’s 24, Not married (and has no intention to) but been with her DP since they were 16. She’s had some MH issues, stemmed from ex husband of mine. This is all noted in her file and is a manageable, she’s had to come off her medication during the pregnancy because of risks to the baby but she was more than willing to do this. She’s in a private room and not on a ward. All this information is important as I assume this is why she was treated the way she was.

She rang me 30 minutes ago in tears. Telling me one of the midwives assigned to her has been horrible to her. We’ll call her Midwife A.

All this is what she says happened - First, DD had baby in a onsie and bib, midwife A came in and commented that the bib was too big for baby, took baby out of DD’s arms and removed the bib. Even if the bib was too big why completely undermine her like that? Next, DD brought wipes for her face, body etc they were baby brand water wipes as her skin is overly sensitive to anything else. Midwife proceeded to lecture DD that these were wrong and cotton buds must be used with water instead, proceeded to bin wipes then leave the room.

Half an hour later Midwife A came back in to ask DD about her feeding choices. DD was sexually assaulted and does not feel comfortable breastfeeding, her choice. Midwife proceeded to give her the breast is best talk, asking why she wouldn’t consider breastfeeding, basically making her feel like shit for picking formula. DD mentioned she’d purchased a perfect prep machine for the formula (you know the ones that give the perfect shot of hot water at night so you don’t have to faff about with the kettle?) this woman nodded, left the room and came back 15 minutes later with a print out of the perfect prep machine....asking DD to confirm if this was what she was talking about. Nodding and tutting. What the fuck? Even if she wanted to know what DD was talking about, why print it out and bring it to her? Why not look it up herself?

Next issue came with the drip that was in DD’s hand, it was ripping the skin, physically pulling up the skin. She asked Midwife A if she could take it out or change it, to be told no nothing could be done. She’d just have to suck it up. An hour after she was told this another midwife came in, Midwife B, she begged midwife B to take it out and showed her what it was doing to her hand. Midwife B promptly took it out stating that there was no problem. Midwife A came back for her checks, asked DD what happened to the drop. DD explained that midwife B took it out, midwife A mumbled something about how that couldn’t be right and she’d have to check that ‘story’ right away.

DD is still vulnerable after birth, can’t move yet because of the catheter and has to be changed by this woman who she feels uncomfortable with and intimidated by. This woman has to handle her naked, change her sheets and I feel from what she’s saying it’s making her MH worse. She says she feels like Midwife A is talking about her with the other midwife (not B) on duty who she seems friendly with, shared looks, little smirks, off comments.

The looks and such could be DD’s dislike for this midwife raring up. But the rest, is this normal! I feel like she’s over stepped the mark and made my child feel low because of her age and choices. Should we ignore this?

Is wanting to be treated with compassion when you are in pain and probably feeling overwhelmed (what first time mother doesn't feel a bit shell shocked?) really being entitled and difficult and expecting five star treatment? This should be the bare minimum that anyone should be entitled to. And I don't care how busy or stressed the staff are to be honest, they still should be capable of not making their patients feel worse.

The midwife sounds horrible.

Not sure why everyone is clutching pearls about the bib, where I gave birth they had bibs and put them on all the babies before feeding (and my dc is 6 months old before anyone thinks it was back in the 50s or whatever).

Not that it makes a difference, but the midwife may not be acting this way because of your dds age and other circumstances, I had dc as married 32 year old and had a midwife exactly the same. Like I said, not like it makes it any better or any different.

Dd would be within her rights to complain. Personally I just tried to ignore it. She'll be off shift soon and hopefully dd won't see her again.

OP please don’t waste any more energy responding to the negative and unhelpful comments on here. Focus on the constructive positive ones and save your fight for the complaints procedure.

@TERFWars - but that's a weird parallel, surely?

If a child has a minor telling off, that's not a problem for their long-term health. This could be.

She can't tell her daughter to 'move on,' because her daughter is still in hospital.

@TERFWars

I think overall YABU op.

You sound very indignant about relatively minor incidents (shaking her head and tutting for instance - I mean, so? Let her tut).

And you’re massively in defence/attack mode - ‘ I feel A was going down the safeguarding route, in that case I’m more than happy to go down the harassing a vulnerable woman route‘.

They’re MIDWIVES who are responsible for newborn babies - of COURSE they’ll be on the lookout for safeguarding concerns, as they should be.

It sounds like A could do with brushing up her bedside manner but imo you need to take a step back and let your adult dd deal with it - be there for support, reassure her - but having meetings with the ward sister etc I think is massively overstepping. Your dd’s not 12.

To be frank you sound rather high maintenance and like someone who has expectations of exceptional, bespoke 5* medical care when in reality midwives and hospital wards are overstretched, under resourced and probably doing their best.

You’d do far better to calm your dd down and be on her side, reassure her, boost her confidence in herself rather than jumping on the offensive and wanting blood from everyone who your dd perceives has wronged her.

Terfwars

I really don't your excuse that the midwives are overstretched etc and that the OP is 'high maintenance' and expects 'exceptional, bespoke 5* medical care. I think is this reverential nonsense.

NO - what OP and her daughter expect and should receive is that the patient is treated with respect and her dignity is upheld. The midwives are there to serve the patient and to care for her NOT to push their own agenda.

OP I am sorry your daughter has had this awful experience.

@SistineScreamer well done for what you achieved tonight. Must be such a relief for DD to know she won't have to deal with midwife A anymore.

Ignore some of the posters, in their eyes NHS staff can do no wrong and expecting basic human decency and respect is akin to demanding,entitled and 5 star treatment.

Ofc you are raging when you know all the shit your DD has endured,her struggles, how hard she worked to be where she is just to be bullied and have her MH threatened by a midwife who thinks they know best.

like

she was snatching baby from DD

You’re escalating...because originally she was ‘taking baby out of dd’s arms’. Now she’s snatching.

I’m not saying the care was great. Tutting, eyerolling, too much info on bf, disposing of wipes she’d bought, less than ideal.

I would NEVER accept really poor medical care for my children. But really, this is fairly minor.

You can A) Give your dd a cuddle and tell her the mw is a twat, just ignore, you’ll be home soon with your beautiful baby.

Or B) Froth and fume, have meetings and complain officially, force the NHS into giving you a grovelling apology, much as the sister has already done.

Why? Just, why?

Do you imagine the midwife will be sacked? Over eyerolls, a print out, too much bf info and a packet of wipes? Do you think she should be? (She won’t be either way).

What will you gain? Nothing. And you’ll be far more able to support your dd by just moving on.

@DocusDiplo

Entitled and difficult? You're talking about a young woman who has just given birth, who suffered abuse and is struggling with her mental health.

I'm stunned that some posters seem to think this is an acceptable way for a midwife to act. Taking a baby out of a mother's arms without asking is unacceptable, binning someone else's property with no explanation is unacceptable, and the attitude is unacceptable along with the rest of the examples. Your daughter is being treated badly and for some reason we accept this level of post natal care.
I am furious that we allow women to be treated this way.
Obviously I've had my own frankly appalling experiences with 2 babies which is why I'm so angry, we have to stand up for ourselves and demand better.

You go that mum/ nanny!
I had my last at 24 and had an emergency hysterectomy immediately after my section when I haemorrhaged faster than they could transfuse me. I woke up in ITU without my son or my husband. I was refused my son due to risk of infection in ITU and then my mum arrived...... We were separated after my birth and she believed that had kicked off her PND which resulted her being admitted to a Mental Health Unit. She went to the nursery and told the midwife that if he was not allowed to be by my bedside, he was to be discharged into her care and she would take responsibility for any infection risk. They offered her half an hour, he never left my side again.
Your actions tonight reminded me of my fierce mama bear, go you!
My only advice is to allow the investigation to take place and then decide if you want to complain after that. At the very least your DD needs an apology.
While it is all fresh in your mind write it all down, with rough timings.
Congrats on the birth of your DGC

A dear friend of mine holds a director level position at a Hospital Trust. She has told me that midwives are a very difficult section of the staff and known quietly as "madwives" amongst senior staff. Proportionately they are ruder, have higher levels of disciplinaries and never stop moaning compared to other branches of nursing.

But really, this is fairly minor.

This is fairly minor to you.

Not to OP's DD who is vulnerable, has been abused in the past and is struggling with her mental health. A DD who wants to complain but is too afraid to.

Even if minor, can you not see how the lack of trust, breakdown in relationships and aggravation can make DD worse?

She can't just get over it and move on, the last incident only happened tonight.

What your dd has gone through today IS horrendous.
And I'm sick of people using the excuse that they are busy,understaffed etc.
That midwife should not have took the baby, if it was a problem that the midwife felt about the bib she could of explained why it wasn't such a good idea for baby to have that bib on.
But I do not see what a bib is going to do to a baby that is just being fed and burped.
I can understand if your dd was leaving the bib on whilst the baby slept or was unattended.
The breast feeding was again bang out of order, yes talk about it but then if the mother doesn't want to then the conversation should end no matter what the mothers reason was.
The wipes (I used with all my children) wtf is so bad about them.
She had no right what so ever to touch them let alone bin them!
Most midwifes are absolutely lovely but unfortunately a very few are onto a power trip and are down right not nice people!

TERF, Snatching, taking, all end in the same thing? Her taking baby from DD without permission. Never once have I used a term that mean ‘giving’ or ‘handing’ if u notice. Tho I didn’t know I had to constantly use ‘snatching’ in my replies order to be valid and to justify midwife’s behaviour or DD’s reaction.

What do I hope to gain? Perhaps midwife A won’t jump on the next vulnerable young mum incase their parent/advocate complains. Perhaps she can explain why she was such a pig to my girl. That’s what I’d like. If none of us did anything thee situations would be a lot more prevalent and probably are due to people not complaining because others don’t see the complaint as ‘worthy’ what would be a worthy complaint in your eyes? Someone dying? It has to go THAT far? But unprofessional, militant disregard for a vulnerable person is accepted?

Is it okay that she hasn’t read my child’s abuse file? Hasn’t seen her sexual assault notes? Ya continues to harass her and tell her she’s wrong for not BFing? That’s not ‘too much information’.

She had no right to touch her property. If you assume this is less than ideal I’d love to know where you draw the line because that view is a very slippery slope.

I don’t want a grovelling apology. Please don’t project of give me the soul of how the trust is on its knees. Ward sister said she was sorry for what DD had experienced, I hardly see that as grovelling. It was an apology, nothing more or less, simply her complying with CALM guidelines.

@Terfwars Unbelievable.

May I gently remind you that the NHS is funded by the people for the people. In any other sector rudeness such as this: strolling and gutting wouldn't be tolerated and jobs would be lost. In any other sector Madwife A would be considered to be providing customer service but in the NHS this no longer applies.

A supposed professional has undermined a human, whose care they are paid a salary to provide, when that human is vulnerable and is entitled to far higher standards.

Real abuse, real consistent or serious (or even moderate) failures in care - I totally understand why you’d complain. But this IS minor when looked at objectively and will come to nothing - and it all just seems pointless to me.

I don’t work in the NHS but I do work in complaints which is probably colouring my view. The ward sister is an expert-
Ward sister has apologised for what DD experienced and has asked for time to open an investigation to identify the issues, what went wrong and how to move forward. She has assured me A will be removed from DD’s care rotation and DD will be discharged as soon as possible

She’s giving lip service-she’s saying all the right things to move a difficult ‘customer’ on - anyone who works in complaints (in any sector) could read this a mile off. Apologise, promise internal review, remove the source of the complaint where possible.

This added to the ‘tone’ of the ops posts makes me feel that she is indeed being hard work.

I think if you hadn't mentioned you'd dd's mh problems and her age some reactions here would have been quite different. People are biased by nature..

To me it sounded like a grumpy nurse. The bf is always pushed on women even if they have said no earlier. The bib is a strangulation hazzard and the wipes was very ott by throwing in the bin. I think your dd was just being judged on being a young mum and therefore 'babied' and looked down on.
You now had your apology so yay. And now let it go. Move on. Focus on what matters now: you have a grandchild. Do focus on your dd's mg though. Prenatal hormones will screw anyone one over. Good luck and congrats

A dear friend of mine holds a director level position at a Hospital Trust. She has told me that midwives are a very difficult section of the staff and known quietly as "madwives" amongst senior staff. Proportionately they are ruder, have higher levels of disciplinaries and never stop moaning compared to other branches of nursing.

I think anyone who has ever been a patient in hospital for a reason other than childbirth could probably identify with that. When I've been a patient in other wards, 99% of the time the nurses have been so caring. And the same applies when I have seen the care given to relatives in hospital. Snappy and unpleasant nurses, and refusal to allow pain relief is a rare occurrence. Whereas in the maternity ward, it feels more like 50:50.

I have a good friend who is a midwife, and if her professional persona is anything like the real person that I know, I'm sure she is a good one. But she was a midwife for quite a few years before having children of her own and she told me once that she now cringes at how she treated the mothers under her care because until she was in the position of lying in pain after a C-section, feeling scared and vulnerable, she had no idea how awful it was. On paper she was a perfectly good midwife, had passed all her training etc (and had originally trained as a nurse, so understood surgery and wound care) but she says with hindsight she was terrible.

@PanamaPattie yes I've read the thread with loads of different experiences. Trying to look at it from a different perspective though.

I was treated so poorly by the midwife on shift in the ward after having DD, I still can't work out why they ever got into that job. Amongst the many, hard working, amazing midwives there are some truly awful ones.

I wish I could relive that day, at this age / confidence and give that woman a piece of my mind.

Op certain nasty types KNOW that people like your dd and I (who have very similar histories btw! I'm a survivor of csa and many of my mh issues are to do with abusive childhood home) are easily dismissed and portrayed as "troublemakers" and so our poor treatment ignored.

It's unacceptable and shouldn't still be happening but it is.

I too was terrified of losing dd when I had my first full breakdown, I had a good experience in the end with the mh team at that time and even with the social worker assigned to us who KNEW that would be my worst and most immediate fear and so made that almost the first thing she said to me - "I'm not here to take your child, I'm here to support you both"

BUT I've had different experiences since during other periods of illness and even right now I'm dealing with an issue where I am being blatantly lied upon on official documents!

We are an easy target!

It's NOT "5 star" treatment for the midwife to employ some fucking compassion, empathy and PROFESSIONALISM!

ANY half decent hcp KNOWS you catch more flies with honey than vinegar! I'd bet good money this midwifes "success rate" in getting women to bf is actually pretty shit!!

I’m a social worker, and if I’d had the experience described by the OP, I’d have told the midwife to fuck off too. love this! Wish all social workers were like you and the one I had first. I've had a few less friendly ones since, but luckily I'm
an assertive arse woman and they were quickly dealt with - politely but very firmly!

I've had other great ones too (ex at one point in response to my pulling him up for HIS poor care of dd on the rare occasions he saw her - which included under feeding her! Would maliciously report to ss complete bullshit reports!) the sw we saw then saw immediately he was talking out his arse and eventually pointed out to him that making malicious reports is actually an offence!

It is NOT minor to treat a mentally ill, vulnerable, survivor of abuse in this way not REMOTELY I sincerely hope TERF that you are not an hcp yourself - relieved to see you are not!

I too have worked many years in customer service and even in retail an attitude like this midwives would not be tolerated by any of the companies I've worked for! If they would by yours I'd like to know which company - so I can avoid!!

Disregarding the wishes of a vulnerable person - repeatedly and refusing to stop when asked.
Binning another person's property
Making a vulnerable person feel harassed and bullied
Tutting. Eye rolling. Equivalent to kissing teeth if you ask me.

I don't call any of that mi or when it happens at an especially emotionally vulnerable time for any woman and a time midwives are supposed to have the sensibilities to understand.

Terf, I assume you have never suffered sexual abuse?
This young lady has managed 9 months of pregnancy without her medication that is vital for her mental health, with no concerns raised by any medical professional involved in her care.
She has been through a major ordeal to deliver her baby and is now recovering. An over bearing midwife took it upon herself to treat that lady with no respect or consideration and whipped both the new mum and dad into new parents that were made to feel they were not doing the right thing for their child.
To you that might be a storm in a teacup but not to anyone that has empathy.
Must be lovely to live in your perfect world!

Sorry, Terf, but I guess I’ll have to break my replies down to you in little responses as you haven’t answered my questions? You've projected your own issues onto this situation without honing in on my DD's own issues.

This woman hasn’t read DD’s file or about her MH or previous abuse. Yet continued to harass her? Why is that acceptable? Why is she allowed to touch my DD’s property? Why do you think it’s alright for her to snatch/take my DD’s baby from her without permission? Is it because you work in complaints that these aren’t worthy?

My DD is already vulnerable. Yet not worthy of decent treatment?