Is this Midwife out of line?

[SistineScreamer]

Curious as to what others would think. My daughter just had her first DC yesterday. She had an elective section and is still in hospital. My daughter is young, she’s 24, Not married (and has no intention to) but been with her DP since they were 16. She’s had some MH issues, stemmed from ex husband of mine. This is all noted in her file and is a manageable, she’s had to come off her medication during the pregnancy because of risks to the baby but she was more than willing to do this. She’s in a private room and not on a ward. All this information is important as I assume this is why she was treated the way she was.

She rang me 30 minutes ago in tears. Telling me one of the midwives assigned to her has been horrible to her. We’ll call her Midwife A.

All this is what she says happened - First, DD had baby in a onsie and bib, midwife A came in and commented that the bib was too big for baby, took baby out of DD’s arms and removed the bib. Even if the bib was too big why completely undermine her like that? Next, DD brought wipes for her face, body etc they were baby brand water wipes as her skin is overly sensitive to anything else. Midwife proceeded to lecture DD that these were wrong and cotton buds must be used with water instead, proceeded to bin wipes then leave the room.

Half an hour later Midwife A came back in to ask DD about her feeding choices. DD was sexually assaulted and does not feel comfortable breastfeeding, her choice. Midwife proceeded to give her the breast is best talk, asking why she wouldn’t consider breastfeeding, basically making her feel like shit for picking formula. DD mentioned she’d purchased a perfect prep machine for the formula (you know the ones that give the perfect shot of hot water at night so you don’t have to faff about with the kettle?) this woman nodded, left the room and came back 15 minutes later with a print out of the perfect prep machine....asking DD to confirm if this was what she was talking about. Nodding and tutting. What the fuck? Even if she wanted to know what DD was talking about, why print it out and bring it to her? Why not look it up herself?

Next issue came with the drip that was in DD’s hand, it was ripping the skin, physically pulling up the skin. She asked Midwife A if she could take it out or change it, to be told no nothing could be done. She’d just have to suck it up. An hour after she was told this another midwife came in, Midwife B, she begged midwife B to take it out and showed her what it was doing to her hand. Midwife B promptly took it out stating that there was no problem. Midwife A came back for her checks, asked DD what happened to the drop. DD explained that midwife B took it out, midwife A mumbled something about how that couldn’t be right and she’d have to check that ‘story’ right away.

DD is still vulnerable after birth, can’t move yet because of the catheter and has to be changed by this woman who she feels uncomfortable with and intimidated by. This woman has to handle her naked, change her sheets and I feel from what she’s saying it’s making her MH worse. She says she feels like Midwife A is talking about her with the other midwife (not B) on duty who she seems friendly with, shared looks, little smirks, off comments.

The looks and such could be DD’s dislike for this midwife raring up. But the rest, is this normal! I feel like she’s over stepped the mark and made my child feel low because of her age and choices. Should we ignore this?

I have also requested that DD be discharged early because of these issues.

The idea that a medical professional should try to repeatedly push breastfeeding on a new mother is outrageous, regardless of the underlying mental health of the patient.

Short of the patient being unconscious or incapacitated, the job of an HCP is to give information and assist a patient in making an informed choice. Sometimes the choice made will not be the one the HCP would recommend or would have made themselves. It doesn't matter. Some midwives seem to think it's acceptable for them to give themselves a little carve out in this regard when it comes to breastfeeding and to try to push it beyond respectful information-giving. It's not.

Your instinct that midwife A wouldn't behave like this (or at least push her behaviour so far) with a professional, married woman in her 30s is probably correct. That woman would be more likely to be aware of her rights and formal channels of complaint, and to use them calmly and effectively. Midwife A would be aware of this and be more likely to tailor her behaviour accordingly.

PP are right that by losing her temper your daughter probably isn't helping herself (though it is totally understandable). May I suggest that the next time someone comes in berating her about breastfeeding, she try to remain calm, say something like, "my notes make it perfectly clear why I am not doing that - I assume you've read them? I'm now asking you to stop this and leave. If you don't do so, I will be pressing the buzzer / phoning [whoever] for further assistance (to remove you and/or be a third party witness to this conversation) because I feel this is extremely inappropriate and you are making me very uncomfortable with your unprofessional, hectoring behaviour."

Nobody can take her baby away because she's chosen not to breastfeed or chosen to make a complaint about her midwife. Try to get her to hold onto that and not give them even a pretence at any reason to be actually concerned for the baby's welfare, however unfairly.

@SistineScreamer

Sorry but these posts doubting my DD’s account I’m not granting a response other than this - her DP witnessed everything that happened. While quiet he’s not easily lead, before anyone decides to go down that route. Wonderful that any of you haven’t encountered militant ‘breast is best’ midwives, sadly they exist. And my daughter and her partner might not be giving optimal care? Please, piss off. Actually look at yourselves blaming someone with MH problems instead of the absolute shit care giver and then piss off.

DD was under extreme pressure and still upset due to previous mentioned issues. She had asked midwife A & C to leave, numerous times before snapping. DP confirms this. Have talked to midwife B to get her take, who confirms DD’s cannula should have been removed earlier due to issues with it. Midwife B also states no problems with DD’s care of baby.

Had supervised talk with ward sister, midwife A & C. Midwife A commented that DD was being uncooperative re feeding advice. I asked why she thought that, her reasoning - DD repeatedly told her that she knew the benefits of BFing but did not wish to do so due to ‘personal reasons’. Midwife A admits she did not believe DD’s reasoning and wanted to educate her. I asked if that was the case why not look at her notes to see her reasoning? She claims she did. At this point I called bullshit (not in that phrase). I explained DD’s situation - she claims having no knowledge of this but claims to have read the notes. I KNOW what those notes say, it’s in there. With detail.

A decided to move onto DD being ‘verbally abusive’ and ‘hysteric’. I made the point that had someone been constantly harassing me and then decided to come at me with back up I would have felt backed into a corner and provoked. I have intentionally phrased it like this as this is what DD and DP say happened. A and C both agreed that they only meant to educate and that C was to take over for A as her shift was ending for ‘once last go at breast is best’. I asked why they didn’t leave when my DD asked them, calmly at first, two times. They claim she didn’t, her DP claims she most definitely did.

I went on to explain the events that DD experienced and her partner witnessed that lead to this out burst. I feel A was going down the safeguarding route, in that case I’m more than happy to go down the harassing a vulnerable woman route. At this point, I was done talking to A and spoke directly to ward sister. Told her DD’s experiences, that her history and MH and abuse should have been taken into consideration instead of trampled on. I noted that in DD’s file, her GP and psychiatrist (who she attended all through out the pregnancy x2 due to not having her meds) had no concerns about her MH, commended how well she was doing. I might have mentioned that a safeguarding issue popping up so suddenly in conjunction with midwife A’s lack of care is suspicious as this proves DD doesn't have form for this.

DD, DP and I are alone in side room with baby. Trying to write and respond more but slightly shaky. We do not need this. There are no concerns through DD's pregnancy, she is NOT a bad mother and has no form for this. DD may have MH issues but she is very much stable and I will most definitely get angry at those who hint at otherwise as I can see her profession. I was there when she hit rock bottom, I know the signs. This is not it.

I am so sorry it sounds like A is definitely targeting your daughter. Definitely take a complaint forward. This is so unfair

Well done OP.

OP, I think it may be a good idea that your DD has someone with her all the time, either her partner or you. So far, the partner has been there to back up DD's version of what has happened, which is good

This.

I really don’t like the sound of the way your DD is being treated, OP. I’m really sorry she’s being subjected to that.

Has the ward sister given you any response? I definitely think you may need to be there if your daughters partner is unable to advocate for her.

Ugh, sorry OP, cross post. Well done you, it sounds like you did brilliantly. And second PP who say it's a good idea to have someone with her as much as possible as a witness (though of course a neutral third party would be ideal, you or her DP are better than her word alone!)

@SistineScreamer what did the ward sister say?

Hopefully your DD will either be discharged soon or have midwives a and c removed from giving her "care".

Subsequent to dealing with midwives and HV's more than 20 years ago now, the behaviour of A and C is precisely why after ds1 was born that I have always insisted on being Mrs Roses as far as HCPs are concerned. Address other humans with respect and it crystallises the mind to treat them with respect as well. I the consultant in charge of my care is called Dr or Mr or Ms then everyone around them can call me Mrs.

I’ve had 3 babies and used more packs baby wipes than I care to count and have never had a pack go mouldy, what a load of shite!

And my daughter and her partner might not be giving optimal care? Please, piss off. Actually look at yourselves blaming someone with MH problems instead of the absolute shit care giver and then piss off

We don’t know the full facts. Some parents do struggle and need some encouragement. Your DD is at risk of developing PND as she has mental health issues, I’m sorry that she’s received poor care.

Please raise an official complaint with Pals and the NMC. The more people that complain about poor care more can be done to improve things.

I had some incredible midwives after a complicated birth but also one absolutely horrid one.
Whilst i respect that they are often judged harshly, some of them become blind to the job and how women feel straight after birth. They have been through a really rough time through COVID and your daughter will be more sensitive than usual, neither of which will help. If she really feels the need to complain then do

Indeed Yubaba. I had dd over 22 years ago and just had sensitive wipes. No water wipes then. Nobody batted an eyelid. With a toddler and a baby warm sterilized water and cotton wool just wasn't going to happen. I think, on occasion, I also wiped a nose occasionally with a leaf.

OP, your DD has been treated appallingly. It so so sorry.

I suspect the combination of her age and MH issues has led this midwife to jump to conclusions based on prejudice and left her thinking she’ll be a nice easy victim.

I definitely think you should stay with her for as long as she’s in hospital as a witness, just to be sure there are no further attempts to engineer a false safeguarding concern.

What was her excuse for chucking the wipes out?
I know you keep saying they were for DD, but even if they were for the baby she doesn't have the right to throw any of your DD's things away.

If she's going to be on her own make sure her phone battery is charged and she records any future exchanges so she has proof of how she is being treated for when you complain

I would be requesting to see her superior and reporting her behaviour then say I do not want her near me or my child again.

I'm feeling more and more sorry for your DD as I read this thread. It's so clear some people just delight in scaring vulnerable young mothers. I cannot believe this response

Op she's being rude to staff. If your daughter isn't more cooperative then they will involve the social.

Why on earth would anyone think that?

I tell you something, when my DD was born, I was a heck of a lot 'ruder' to staff than this, and so was my partner. We were both mid-30s, and that may have protected us from the particularly nasty treatment that seems to be doled out to the OP's DD. But we certainly had no issue calling a spade a spade when we were treated badly, and you know what? We had apologies from other midwives on the ward, a junior doctor, and all the postnatal care midwives we saw - because they were disgusted at how we'd been treated.

I hope the OP's daughter gets the apology she deserves, too.

OP you are an amazing mum/grandma/advocate and your daughter sounds like she is most definitely an amazing mum for doing what she needed to do and calling you in for back up to help her do the best for her child. She sounds like a strong woman. I’m here for you both in spirit If not in person. I had my own shitty midwife experience only the other way round as she guilted and brow beat me into giving my son formula when I really wanted to bf- made the whole experience so so much worse. All that matters is your daughters choices about what is best for her and baby.

Complain, complain, complain.

Breast is best zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

She sounds like a complete dickhead.

Congratulations on your grandchild.

I am appalled to hear what your DD has gone through, thank goodness you and her partner are around to support her. She has been bullied and harassed at her most vulnerable. Isn’t it enough to deal with being an abuse survivor, why on earth is she being continually lectured by midwife A? This midwife has not taken into account anything your DD has told her or any of her past history which is detailed in her notes.
I think you should stay with your DD in shifts both yourself and her partner so she is not left alone on the ward. Then ask about an early discharge as soon as it is safe to do so.
It is imperative that you make a formal complaint about this midwife’s conduct because in all likelihood she has prior form for this. She may well have other complaints on her file already. I cannot see how she is upholding her professional obligations, she is there to support her patients not harass them. Your daughter has every right to refuse any care from this midwife and I would insist on it.
I wish your daughter and the baby and whole family well and I hope this horrible experience will not overshadow the joy of the lovely new baby.

Ward sister has apologised for what DD experienced and has asked for time to open an investigation to identify the issues, what went wrong and how to move forward. She has assured me A will be removed from DD’s care rotation and DD will be discharged as soon as possible.

Am currently researching PALS, Nursing & Midwifery Council to lodge a formal complaint.

Re the wipes - A claims she didn't want DD to use them on baby, even after being told they weren't for baby. She had nothing to say (quite literally) when I asked what gave her the right to throw them out. I assume she will deny this.

I will be staying with DD from this point onwards. DP agrees as I am more capable than he is when it comes to speaking up.

And btw, @Annierose293, your post resonated with me!

A friend of mine had her first baby aged 23, and like you she looked younger than her age. She'd been with her husband for eight years and they had a mortgage and steady jobs, but all through her pregnancy, the first question in appointments was always 'have you stopped smoking yet'. We were all bewildered her behalf, then she found out there was funding for an initiative in the area, to stop young mums from smoking. She fitted the 'young mum' category, so they just assumed she smoked! Then at some point, she'd ticked a box saying 'I have never made use of NHS services to quit smoking' (because she'd never smoked) and that had put her on some list to be constantly pestered about it.

It really stuck in my mind, because I remember how frustrating it was for her to find that half her appointments were taken up, not with medical care, but with lectures about not doing something she'd never done in the first place.

People definitely do stereotype younger mums. It is such a nasty thing.

but I didn’t think MH issues automatically translated to delusional or liar? unfortunately the ongoing prejudice against the mentally ill often means we are treated exactly as if we are “hysterical” and/or lying!!

And hcps can be the worst for this - and I speak as an ex hcp myself.

I’ve been horrified reading your posts, but not surprised!

PLEASE stand up for your girl!

Another issue is that the mentally ill rarely complain (we fear our MI being used against us - and it often is!) and when we do we are dismissed/ignored.

I am an advocate/supporter of bf BUT if that is the mothers choice. It is NOBODY’s business to bully her into doing so! It especially stinks that this is the attitude when there’s fuck all actual knowledge and support from the nhs re bf!

Midwife A is being a nasty fucking bully and should be removed from dealing with your dd at all. Even IF you take the view that it’s simply dd taken a dislike to her (which I don’t btw) then it’s no longer an appropriate or therapeutic relationship and so serves NOBODY inc the baby to force that midwife on dd.

I’ve filtered the thread at a certain point because the STUPID comments blaming the dd and mh issues are pissing me off!

Just goes to show though how prevalent and entrenched the prejudice against the mentally ill is - inc on mn!

SHAME on those posters.

I’m almost 50 and damn straight if a hcp was similarly harassing me I’d likely end up telling them to fuck off!

They are not perfect, they are not infallible and they have prejudices and agendas which they’re SUPPOSED to ignore in order to provide professional care.

Sadly, in my and many other older hcps the quality and attitude of hcps is deteriorating - whole other thread!

Absolutely continue to advocate for and support your dd op. I sincerely hope you manage to get this midwife off her case!