Is this Midwife out of line?

[SistineScreamer]

Curious as to what others would think. My daughter just had her first DC yesterday. She had an elective section and is still in hospital. My daughter is young, she’s 24, Not married (and has no intention to) but been with her DP since they were 16. She’s had some MH issues, stemmed from ex husband of mine. This is all noted in her file and is a manageable, she’s had to come off her medication during the pregnancy because of risks to the baby but she was more than willing to do this. She’s in a private room and not on a ward. All this information is important as I assume this is why she was treated the way she was.

She rang me 30 minutes ago in tears. Telling me one of the midwives assigned to her has been horrible to her. We’ll call her Midwife A.

All this is what she says happened - First, DD had baby in a onsie and bib, midwife A came in and commented that the bib was too big for baby, took baby out of DD’s arms and removed the bib. Even if the bib was too big why completely undermine her like that? Next, DD brought wipes for her face, body etc they were baby brand water wipes as her skin is overly sensitive to anything else. Midwife proceeded to lecture DD that these were wrong and cotton buds must be used with water instead, proceeded to bin wipes then leave the room.

Half an hour later Midwife A came back in to ask DD about her feeding choices. DD was sexually assaulted and does not feel comfortable breastfeeding, her choice. Midwife proceeded to give her the breast is best talk, asking why she wouldn’t consider breastfeeding, basically making her feel like shit for picking formula. DD mentioned she’d purchased a perfect prep machine for the formula (you know the ones that give the perfect shot of hot water at night so you don’t have to faff about with the kettle?) this woman nodded, left the room and came back 15 minutes later with a print out of the perfect prep machine....asking DD to confirm if this was what she was talking about. Nodding and tutting. What the fuck? Even if she wanted to know what DD was talking about, why print it out and bring it to her? Why not look it up herself?

Next issue came with the drip that was in DD’s hand, it was ripping the skin, physically pulling up the skin. She asked Midwife A if she could take it out or change it, to be told no nothing could be done. She’d just have to suck it up. An hour after she was told this another midwife came in, Midwife B, she begged midwife B to take it out and showed her what it was doing to her hand. Midwife B promptly took it out stating that there was no problem. Midwife A came back for her checks, asked DD what happened to the drop. DD explained that midwife B took it out, midwife A mumbled something about how that couldn’t be right and she’d have to check that ‘story’ right away.

DD is still vulnerable after birth, can’t move yet because of the catheter and has to be changed by this woman who she feels uncomfortable with and intimidated by. This woman has to handle her naked, change her sheets and I feel from what she’s saying it’s making her MH worse. She says she feels like Midwife A is talking about her with the other midwife (not B) on duty who she seems friendly with, shared looks, little smirks, off comments.

The looks and such could be DD’s dislike for this midwife raring up. But the rest, is this normal! I feel like she’s over stepped the mark and made my child feel low because of her age and choices. Should we ignore this?

Well if your DD told the midwife to fuck off, it was under severe provocation. Good that she stood up for herself! Hope she gets home soon and that the midwife gets a talking to.

If you or DD have any more dealings with these MW's I would try to record everything

Actually OP, may I suggest you ask for the clinical site manager to be bleeped. Then ask for the senior registrar to review your dd's cannula/catheter/clinical care and when that has been done ask to speak with the Director of Women and Children's Services first thing. And don't leave. Set up camp in the corridor if you have to.

You are a fantastic mother and now you need to be an advocate for your dd, her do and your grandchild.

Some really nasty people on this thread who seem to lead theor lives in accordance with the lowest common denominator which is precisely what feeds into the hands of the nursing/social care/ busy body fraternity who tend to exploit the power of "threat" their roles give them.

They are going to do that all right they will just be getting their stories straight first

Very pessimistic. They will be at risk of being struck off if they were to do that. We only know half of the story, sometimes MWs do need to be a bit tough (but they should still treat the woman as an individual and with empathy), perhaps the OPs DD or DDs partner haven’t been proactive in feeding or caring for their baby. We simple don’t have both sides of the story.

So many women on here are saying they’ve had poor PN care, but if a complaint isn’t officially raised things cant and won’t ever change.

Congratulations on becoming a grandma! Firstly, the midwife had no right to bin the wipes as they wasn’t her property, secondly breast isn’t always best, my daughter was breast fed for 2 years, she still ended up being asthmatic, has allergies and eczema, and lastly it doesn’t matter how old your daughter is, she is on her own, feeling vulnerable and just had a baby, the midwife is being a complete and utter bitch and needs to be reported.

Midwife A sounds very overbearing and unprofessional. She should be trying to support your daughter and that is not what is happening here.

Suggest you speak to a manager and say Midwife A is making your daughter uncomfortable / worsening her mental health, that what began as well meaning advice has begun to feel more like bullying and that she needs to be kept away from your daughter. I suspect the manager will have heard that before about this midwife!

I am not sure how it works in hospital but there was a midwife on my community care team that I found unhelpful (not as bad as Midwife A). I told one of the other midwives that I was not willing to see that midwife again as we didn’t really gel, and they said that was a common request and no problem.

(The individual points the midwife made were kinda right though, as someone upthread said. A newborn shouldn’t be in a bib; breast is much healthier than formula although obviously it wasn’t helpful to point that out to your daughter given the background; and wet wipes aren’t as good as freshly sterilised water on cotton wool, because once opened the wet wipes can mould fast. So the midwife does know her stuff the problem is how she is making your daughter feel.)

@bythehairsonmychinichinchin

They are going to do that all right they will just be getting their stories straight first

Very pessimistic. They will be at risk of being struck off if they were to do that. We only know half of the story, sometimes MWs do need to be a bit tough (but they should still treat the woman as an individual and with empathy), perhaps the OPs DD or DDs partner haven’t been proactive in feeding or caring for their baby. We simple don’t have both sides of the story.

So many women on here are saying they’ve had poor PN care, but if a complaint isn’t officially raised things cant and won’t ever change.

The investigation into Shropshire maternity deaths? The only way it was allowed to go on so long was collusion and covering up by staff

I am sorry your daughter has been treated so poorly. I wonder if you would have had more support if you didn't mention her previous mental health difficulties. There is almost an undercurrent of people not believing her isn't there?

The midwife sounds like an arse, and your daughter snapped. She must have missed the memo that us little women can be treated like shit at our most vulnerable moments and have our choices about what we do with our own bodies disrespected when politely asked to stop, and we should just smile sweetly... fuck that! she is human and she snapped after being pressured and disrespected.

I hope your daughter is home and congratulations to your family.

That was meant to say I hope your daughter is home soon!

The investigation into Shropshire maternity deaths? The only way it was allowed to go on so long was collusion and covering up by staff

This is why it’s important to raise a complaint so it’s officially logged.

Why on earth would 2 midwives waste their time on this once the mother has made their decision?

Because some HCPs think they know best.

Like the midwife that didn't believe me that I could feel everything and something was wrong with the epidural.

Or the one that refused to give me a bottle for DD despite her screaming her head off and my bleeding nipples because she had been on the breast all day.

The same midwife that told me to fight it off and I won't know what hit me when I get home when I asked her to at least pass DD over so I could change her nappy if she didn't have time to do it herself. I had the catheter still in , really bad stitches and I wasn't supposed to be moving about and to stay on my side . She said she's busy and she might come back later, she never did. As soon as the catheter was off she said I had to wheel DD for her meds despite the fact I was still in pain and couldn't even put my legs together.

I also had a super awesome and nice one that went above and beyond, including letting me use their fridge so I could keep my water cold.

Some people suck. Some people are HCPs. That means some HCPs will suck.

Complaints can also be raised with the NMC they can suspend staff whilst an investigation is carried out.

Training them to a better standard would be a start. Nurse first then specialise into midwifery

Training them to a better standard would be a start. Nurse first then specialise into midwifery why does nursing make a better midwives? I think the issues her are empathy and compassion, you can’t teach those skills!

@bythehairsonmychinichinchin

Training them to a better standard would be a start. Nurse first then specialise into midwifery why does nursing make a better midwives? I think the issues her are empathy and compassion, you can’t teach those skills!

No but it would hopefully weed out some of the bad ones. And they would be able to deal with surgical patients

@SistineScreamer

So a lot to get through but first and foremost.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I didn’t think MH issues automatically translated to delusional or liar? I know my child and I know her conditions, none of them include delusions or paranoia. After the section she was started back on her medication.

Those of you who are saying two sides, but you weren’t THERE etc no I wasn’t there but DD’s partner was hence why I couldn’t be. He was there for the birth and after, we are only allowed ONE visitor and this is his place as baby’s father and DD’s partner. Unfortunately he’s terribly shy and about as fierce as a kitten, add Aspergers onto that and we haven’t much for confrontation but he can and DOES confirm what she says.
*
Curious to those who think it’s acceptable to keep berating a new mum about BFing until she feels like absolute shit? Is that normal? Ignoring her pain? And throwing her wipes out? THE WIPES WERE NOT FOR THE BABY. Though a quick look on the trust’s site - baby wipes can be used for newborns. AND THE BIBE - Was newborn sizes and used when feeding/burping. Not randomly when baby was asleep. Midwife took baby out of DD’s arms - this is the issue I had. She could have mentioned it to her instead of snatching baby.*

Onto now - when I got to DD’s room ward sister informed me that midwife B was with DD and partner and Midwife A/C (midwife A’s friendly one) were waiting in another room. Ward sister had spoken to both parties and explained the the situation to me, I then went to talk to DD and partner.

Apparently it was the end of Midwife A’s shift and she had taken it upon herself to give DD one last ‘push’ about BFing, even brought midwife C for back up. DD asked her to please leave as she had made her choice. Midwife A told her she was being uncooperative and not doing what was best for baby. DD told her to leave this time, she didn’t just continued about benefits and superiority of BFing and how DD was wrong. DD then snapped and told her to ‘get the fuck out, you’re upsetting me.’ She then decided DD was having an episode and moved to take baby. DD held onto baby and repeated “My baby is safe. You are the problem. Please leave.” Ward sister was called while DD rang me.

DD has calmed down. I have talked to Midwife A, B and C + ward sister. Will write other update now and fill in what I can

Sorry but I'm glad DD told her to fuck off. Frankly, I would have done too.

I was made to feel like shit when I had my second DC and couldn't BF due to their prematurity. My milk literally didn't come in no matter how long I sat on one of the electronic pumps in neonatal, and those hurt like hell.
This one miserable old bitch of a MW decided to berate me in a room full of other mums until she reduced me to tears. In the end I snapped and told her to get the fuck away from me.
When she moaned to the ward sister, the other mums backed me up.

Sorry but the ward sister needs to make it plain to A and C they are not to go into your DDs room again. They have knowingly bullied her using her MH as an excuse.
Then you need to complain to the head of the hospital trust, a full formal complaint and take it as far as it will go.
I know we're all meant to wave a flag for the NHS right now, and sure you get many brilliant NHS staff. But it's about time they got rid of nasty, self important twats like your poor DD has experienced. No doubt your DD is the first she's done this to, however most new mums never complain because they're too tired or too involved in life with a newborn. That's why people like these get away with it for years.

OP - you need to make a formal complaint. Why wouldn't you want to advocate for daughter? Some posters pointing out she's an adult and should do so herself - pretty mean.

My daughters were visiting their GPs initially with me and then by themselves as adults for years without suitable treatments and investigations. As young adults they were dismissed by GPs and given a variety of excuses for their difficulties. I intervened when they were getting nowhere and after 25 yrs + of varying symptoms of varying severity they were eventually diagnosed as having EDS 3. I feel vindicated for speaking up for them.

Same as your daughter, my oldest daughter was treated terribly by a particularly incompetent midwife throughout her first labour. She thought paracetamol was more than adequate for labour pains and then panicked when I insisted my daughter was examined and she found that my daughter was fully dilated. She shoved gas and air in her hand and said do you know how to use this? (FTM) She was then bundled from Triage to a delivery room at breakneck sped. We were telling consultants and midwives all through the pregnancy that there can be complications with EDS pregnancies and we were completely ignored. Due to EDS my daughter had premature rupture of membranes. Also afterwards, because the midwife had snapped the cord from the placenta, when the consultant tried to remove the placenta manually, my daughter fainted due to immense pain and was unconscious for a while. In order to 'snap her out of it' (midwife's words) she slapped my daughter's face so hard that she ended up facing the opposite direction (whilst still unconscious) - with a very large and very obvious angry red handprint on her cheek. I was utterly appalled. She had been assaulted! I was speechless. I was too shocked to string a sentence together. I also bitterly regret not complaining. But as others have said I was so relieved that my daughter pulled through after her premature labour, despite significant blood loss, theatre for removal of placenta and baby being ok, that I didn't think to complain formally at the time.

I still feel traumatised at her treatment.

She was also pressured into breastfeeding - very little support in hospital and absolutely no support at home. What's that all about? If you're going to push breastfeeding over FF then some form of support should be available as that's the point when women are likely to give up.

A lot of people very unsatisfied with midwives attitude and approach - please please complain formally - there's a need to root the 'bad apples' out. No woman, whatever age, should have to endure poor practice.

Ward sister needs to get a grip on her bullying staff asap. I hope you made it clear those muppets are to stay well away from your daughter what disgusting behaviour.

(The individual points the midwife made were kinda right though, as someone upthread said. A newborn shouldn’t be in a bib; breast is much healthier than formula although obviously it wasn’t helpful to point that out to your daughter given the background; and wet wipes aren’t as good as freshly sterilised water on cotton wool, because once opened the wet wipes can mould fast. So the midwife does know her stuff the problem is how she is making your daughter feel.)

The wipes were not for the baby.

No but it would hopefully weed out some of the bad ones. And they would be able to deal with surgical patients we do deal with c-sections??

Is 24 really considered young?

Hmm how much training does a direct entry midwife get in basic nursing skills and care

Sorry but these posts doubting my DD’s account I’m not granting a response other than this - her DP witnessed everything that happened. While quiet he’s not easily lead, before anyone decides to go down that route. Wonderful that any of you haven’t encountered militant ‘breast is best’ midwives, sadly they exist. And my daughter and her partner might not be giving optimal care? Please, piss off. Actually look at yourselves blaming someone with MH problems instead of the absolute shit care giver and then piss off.

DD was under extreme pressure and still upset due to previous mentioned issues. She had asked midwife A & C to leave, numerous times before snapping. DP confirms this. Have talked to midwife B to get her take, who confirms DD’s cannula should have been removed earlier due to issues with it. Midwife B also states no problems with DD’s care of baby.

Had supervised talk with ward sister, midwife A & C. Midwife A commented that DD was being uncooperative re feeding advice. I asked why she thought that, her reasoning - DD repeatedly told her that she knew the benefits of BFing but did not wish to do so due to ‘personal reasons’. Midwife A admits she did not believe DD’s reasoning and wanted to educate her. I asked if that was the case why not look at her notes to see her reasoning? She claims she did. At this point I called bullshit (not in that phrase). I explained DD’s situation - she claims having no knowledge of this but claims to have read the notes. I KNOW what those notes say, it’s in there. With detail.

A decided to move onto DD being ‘verbally abusive’ and ‘hysteric’. I made the point that had someone been constantly harassing me and then decided to come at me with back up I would have felt backed into a corner and provoked. I have intentionally phrased it like this as this is what DD and DP say happened. A and C both agreed that they only meant to educate and that C was to take over for A as her shift was ending for ‘once last go at breast is best’. I asked why they didn’t leave when my DD asked them, calmly at first, two times. They claim she didn’t, her DP claims she most definitely did.

I went on to explain the events that DD experienced and her partner witnessed that lead to this out burst. I feel A was going down the safeguarding route, in that case I’m more than happy to go down the harassing a vulnerable woman route. At this point, I was done talking to A and spoke directly to ward sister. Told her DD’s experiences, that her history and MH and abuse should have been taken into consideration instead of trampled on. I noted that in DD’s file, her GP and psychiatrist (who she attended all through out the pregnancy x2 due to not having her meds) had no concerns about her MH, commended how well she was doing. I might have mentioned that a safeguarding issue popping up so suddenly in conjunction with midwife A’s lack of care is suspicious as this proves DD doesn't have form for this.

DD, DP and I are alone in side room with baby. Trying to write and respond more but slightly shaky. We do not need this. There are no concerns through DD's pregnancy, she is NOT a bad mother and has no form for this. DD may have MH issues but she is very much stable and I will most definitely get angry at those who hint at otherwise as I can see her profession. I was there when she hit rock bottom, I know the signs. This is not it.

OP, I think it may be a good idea that your DD has someone with her all the time, either her partner or you. So far, the partner has been there to back up DD's version of what has happened, which is good.

But given the bullying nature of midwife A, I wouldn't put it past her to try and get into the room again if DD is alone. It then becomes a different situation without witnesses.

And I don't know how many times I must mention this.

THE WIPES WERE NOT FOR BABY. YET MIDWIFE STILL THREW THEM OUT.

THE BFING ISSUES WASN'T MENTIONED 'JUST ONCE'. IT WAS A CONSTANT LECTURE ON SOMEONE WHO ALREADY FELT BAD.

THE BIB - WAS ON WHEN DD WAS FEEDING/BURPING BABY. NOT GENERALLY. THE ISSUE WAS MIDWIFE TAKING BABY FROM DD.