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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is anyone else boycotting Tesco's for giving £80,000 to Mermaids?

999 replies

loveyouradvice · 05/07/2020 17:20

Just that really... I was shocked, especially given all the news coverage there has been about the issues recently. I would have expected them to give it to an uncontroversial charity at the very least - and ideally one that most of their customers would like to support

OP posts:
NewarkShark · 06/07/2020 12:43

@GimmeAy

Whether you literally state that all transwomen are predatory or not, when you insist on using the actions of a tiny minority to exclude the entire group, you ARE inferring the group as a whole are the problem. It's exactly the same conflation that was made back when people used to argue that homosexual men couldn't be trusted around children because some men sexually abused boys.

Perfectly put.

You simply misunderstand the issue.

Gender critical people believe that it is the fact of being male that makes men a risk to women. Even though the majority of men pose no risk to women, on the basis that some do, and it is not possible to know which, the entire group is excluded. No one seems to argue, incidentally, that excluding men means people are saying all men are rapists.

Anyway, now consider where this issue of bathe risk arising from being male leaves trans women.

It is true that trans women are at risk from male violence, and this is why I don’t agree with people who just say they should use the men’s. But if it is right (as evidence suggests) trans women pose an equivalent risk to women as a man (which means most of them don’t in the same way most men don’t), then we need to have a sensible conversation about how to deal with that.

If there is evidence that identifying as a woman reduces the risk posed by being born and socialised male, then present it and make the argument. Otherwise you need to accept opening women’s spaces to anyone who says they identify as a woman will increase the risk to women, even if it is only from a small minority (as, I repeat, is the same with men), so there’s an issue we need to resolve.

There is no logical basis for saying that wanting this conversation means all trans women are predators. Of course they aren’t. Most aren’t. But that doesn’t mean it’s as simple as everyone who says they identify as a woman should be able to enter women’s spaces at will, and the quoted post and agreement show a fundamental lack of understanding on your parts.

GreytExpectations · 06/07/2020 12:43

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

Just like lots of racists have black friends?
Good point! That's often trotted out by racists on here too.
PotholeParadise · 06/07/2020 12:44

@GimmeAy

This board (Feminism Chat) has become an echo chamber (I had it removed from my boards I see as it makes me so sad), but now I see that this is AIBU, which is why I'm seeing this thread I guess. You all gang up there in your ultra strong Feminist gang, and bully and ridicule anyone who doesn't fear transwomen. If you were so concerned about transgenderism/Mermaids, why are you not as concerned about Transmen as well as transwomen?
Hang on. What discussion are you on. We're discussing Mermaids. Gender non-conforming girls being put into the transboy box is a huge concern* on MN. It comes up again and again that there has been a big increase in girls, especially autistic girls, being referred.
LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 06/07/2020 12:44

Right off to Tesco, anyone need anything?

Wine please Grin

I've noticed it being called out more lately too, think more people are thinking they just can't stay silent anymore

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/07/2020 12:45

Gender critical people believe that it is the fact of being male that makes men a risk to women. Even though the majority of men pose no risk to women, on the basis that some do, and it is not possible to know which, the entire group is excluded. No one seems to argue, incidentally, that excluding men means people are saying all men are rapists.

Men's Rights Activists do. But most people get that males as a class pose a greater risk to females than other women.

GreytExpectations · 06/07/2020 12:45

@GimmeAy

This board (Feminism Chat) has become an echo chamber (I had it removed from my boards I see as it makes me so sad), but now I see that this is AIBU, which is why I'm seeing this thread I guess. You all gang up there in your ultra strong Feminist gang, and bully and ridicule anyone who doesn't fear transwomen. If you were so concerned about transgenderism/Mermaids, why are you not as concerned about Transmen as well as transwomen?
Very well said! It's true, if someone actually supports transwomen on here they get bullied for their opinions and then posters wonder why none of us want to try to have a "discussion".
tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 06/07/2020 12:45

Not precious about which of you engages with me on this. Anyone?

RufustheRowlingReindeer · 06/07/2020 12:45

Doesn't mean you're incapable of being transphobic as you have trans mates or family

Can you honestly not read

That’s exactly what i just said

At no point did i say someone with a trans friend or relative couldn't be transphobic

Impatiens · 06/07/2020 12:45

Article from last December about the actor Robert Webb's criticism of Mermaids. metro.co.uk/2018/12/23/peep-shows-robert-webb-causes-controversy-criticising-transgender-rights-charity-mermaids-8279057/

He is in no way critical of trans people, just has seen right through Mermaids and the sickly-sweet 'Dolores Umbridge' type of 'support' they give to vulnerable children.

GimmeAy · 06/07/2020 12:46

@MissMarplesBloomers It's for people like you that I do bother sticking my head above the parapet.

I'll have a nice pair of bloomers please (the bread kind obviously).

hellotoday27 · 06/07/2020 12:46

I do not support mermaids and will be avoiding Tescos.
I find them a rather scary organisation and am concerned about their influence on young people.

12boo · 06/07/2020 12:46

@GimmeAy

Whether you literally state that all transwomen are predatory or not, when you insist on using the actions of a tiny minority to exclude the entire group, you ARE inferring the group as a whole are the problem. It's exactly the same conflation that was made back when people used to argue that homosexual men couldn't be trusted around children because some men sexually abused boys.

Perfectly put.

Not really The point about trans women is that they are male. Excluding males from female spaces and sports is a measure taken to protect females. It does not mean that ALL males are a problem but that females, under the equality act, deserve male Free spaces in some circumstances. The trans status of a male (especially when that is now such a large umbrella) does not mean that they are not male
12boo · 06/07/2020 12:46

@hellotoday27

I do not support mermaids and will be avoiding Tescos. I find them a rather scary organisation and am concerned about their influence on young people.
Same
NewarkShark · 06/07/2020 12:47

Fair enough @Ereshkigalangcleg - I should have said no one credible Grin

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/07/2020 12:47

I've noticed it being called out more lately too, think more people are thinking they just can't stay silent anymore

Funny, I've also noticed it on the opposite side. JK Rowling has widened the conversation (while taking lots and lots of vile, disgusting, misogynistic abuse from trans rights activists and their supporters) and these issues are being discussed much more openly. Cheers to that Wine

GreytExpectations · 06/07/2020 12:48

@salsa899

have any of the people who accused FWR section of transphobia posted any actual evidence of said transphobia? I'm still waiting..
I gave examples but as expected the anti trans bunch denied then right away and accused me of lying. I'm sure you will do the same.
GimmeAy · 06/07/2020 12:49

If there is evidence that identifying as a woman reduces the risk posed by being born and socialised male, then present it and make the argument. Otherwise you need to accept opening women’s spaces to anyone who says they identify as a woman will increase the risk to women, even if it is only from a small minority (as, I repeat, is the same with men), so there’s an issue we need to resolve.

Is there evidence that transwomen have posed a massive risk worthy of debate?

Impatiens · 06/07/2020 12:49

Less than 300 posting opportunities to go...since this has been allowed to stay in AIBU instead of being shunted (scuse pun!) into FWR better make the most of it..

Is anyone else boycotting Tesco's for giving £80,000 to Mermaids?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/07/2020 12:50

Funny, I've also noticed it on the opposite side. JK Rowling has widened the conversation (while taking lots and lots of vile, disgusting, misogynistic abuse from trans rights activists and their supporters) and these issues are being discussed much more openly. Cheers to that

Can only be good for all of us, to fairly examine any points of disagreement and work to find mutually acceptable solutions, surely?

Fearandsurprise · 06/07/2020 12:51

@Ninkanink

Oh it’s hard not to engage isn’t it. There’s just more and more to challenge, and especially when it’s in AIBU I have a strong motivation to do the work on behalf of those who might be reading for the first time. But there are lots of threads on this, and I’ve done my bit for a while, I think.

I’m not sure it’s wilful manipulation, tbh. I think some people just cannot apply logic, nor engage in abstract thinking.

Back to Mermaids. The more people look into them the better. And ‘research’ doesn’t just mean googling them and reading the first hit or having a quick glance at their mission statement or whatever flowery language they use. It means in depth critical analysis looking at evidence from various sources, and thinking about the bigger picture and overarching principles.

Yes, when Starbucks partnered with Mermaids a few months ago, I pointed out some concerns about Mermaid’s approach to safeguarding to some friends who are teachers. They didn’t believe me, and did some research, as they told me later, so they could tell me how I must have misunderstood. They were horrified about what they’d read and came back and agreed with my concerns.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/07/2020 12:52

Is there evidence that transwomen have posed a massive risk worthy of debate?

They're male. You need to produce the evidence why they would be any different to the rest of the male sex class. Not us. Learn how the scientific method works. You're the one making the claim which departs from accepted knowledge.

GimmeAy · 06/07/2020 12:52

Excluding males from female spaces and sports is a measure taken to protect females.

Is it? News to me. I thought it was about modesty and religions and potential fornication and such. Plus men are stink.

GreytExpectations · 06/07/2020 12:52

Funny that nobody has been able to address my valid points about it being the parents who alow their children to transition. Seems people want to blame an organisation for bad parenting. Very bizarre

Ninkanink · 06/07/2020 12:53

[quote ItsLateHumpty]@Ninkanink hope you actually made it out Brew Grin[/quote]
I didn’t! I’ve given up for today. Grin

It’s very sad to me that people consistently lie about this. Some of the more recent comments on this thread are laughable, but I’ve promised not to engage.

FWR is overwhelmingly supportive and inclusive of transgender individuals where legitimately warranted and their plight is well understood and their difficulties absolutely are acknowledged. We care, we advocate and we aim to protect. Many women on the board have gay/bisexual/trans children or family members. There is plenty of personal experience and engagement from those perspectives balancing the abstract discussions and overarching themes.

Some well meaning and often quite good people still don’t know or understand that, which is even sadder. Because there is lots of support. Robust support and advocacy, thoughtful engagement, careful and detailed analysis with a real understanding of all nuances of the relevant subject(s). And more importantly, it’s centred on the real world, where things really matter, where actions have lasting consequences that you cannot identify out of at a later date, nor truly reverse. But people would often rather tell a lie that sounds good, or believe a lie that sounds good, no matter how cruel that lie is when it comes right down to it.

Anyway, back to Mermaids.

PotholeParadise · 06/07/2020 12:53

@GimmeAy

If there is evidence that identifying as a woman reduces the risk posed by being born and socialised male, then present it and make the argument. Otherwise you need to accept opening women’s spaces to anyone who says they identify as a woman will increase the risk to women, even if it is only from a small minority (as, I repeat, is the same with men), so there’s an issue we need to resolve.

Is there evidence that transwomen have posed a massive risk worthy of debate?

Mermaids is an organisation that is supposed to support youth struggling with gender identity. There is dissension as to whether they truly provide support.

Transwomen are adults and they are not relevant.