To think 'big food' industry is to blame for the obesity epidemic, not individuals?

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When I read on MN, and when I talk to people IRL, there's an underlying attitude to obesity that it is all down to willpower, or lack of, and individual choice over whether to be fat or thin. If we all tried a little harder and were disciplined, everyone could be their ideal weight.

I recently got on to reading some books on processed food, they are not new concepts, the ideas have been around a while. Lots of scientists and MDs from the US, where the obesity epidemic is a little further down the road than in the UK, have written about the addictive nature of processed food, books such as 'Wheat Belly', 'The Dorito Effect', Robert Lustig has done many talks on it. In the UK, Joanna Blythman has wrote quite a bit on the UK food industry.

Some have linked processed food to activating dopamine receptors in the brain so it works like other addictions. Yet cannot escape it once we walk into a supermarket, most of what is for sale there is very highly processed food. It's all sugar, salt, wheat, the bad fats (processed oils like rapeseed, not natural fats which are healthy). Flavours created by amazing scientists so you'd rather eat the flavour chemicals than the actual food.

Yet we are telling obese people, some of whom may be using food addiction to deal with past trauma, lifestyle stress etc, 'it is your choice, what you eat, you need to try harder, have more self respect, more willpower'.

I see obese people now as 'you are a victim of 'big food', the companies (only a handful of global billion pound companies) that produce and cleverly advertise and use supermarkets to sell this highly refined, highly addictive processed food'. If they were educated and told it's not their fault, they might decide they don't want to play the 'big food' game anymore.

Ok then - I also don’t think it’s the sole responsibility of the food industry but it does play a key part, along with mental health, genes, movement, education, income, sleep, stress, free time, food access.

Yes a few people will still go to the effort to bake a cake, but be realistic, we have a rising obesity epidemic and the availability and convenience of food plays a key part. Did you read the piece about Ghana? They acknowledge obesity has complex factors but look at what is happening there with the emergence of fast food.

Historically there were a lot less fat people, but yes you’ll always have anomalies. That doesn’t really stop the fast food and environment of today contributing to rising weights. It’s needs looking at beyond ‘it’s the individuals fault’ as it has health and cost implications for society.

It doesn't helpful sure But it's complex

I'm a stone heavier than in my teens because

1. I eat too much cake and treats
2. I've had two kids and it's changed my shape and metabolism
3. I am approaching menopause
4. It's a constant battle to maintain even this weight with exercise and cutting back from alcohol

But today's food is tempting and it's hard to have that much willpower every day.

Where did I say in the U.K. we live longer than people in Amsterdam?? I gave an example of how the environment can influence positive health behaviour - I.e cycling! I didn’t comment on their life expectancy. Why don’t you try looking at the blue zones research it might open your mind.

@Karwomannghia

Good point about snacks. Interesting prepared healthy snacks just don’t exist here. It’s crisps, chocolate or a ‘health’ food bar that is nothing of the sort.

Bananas, apples, handful of nuts, carrot slices, small yoghurt... those are just a few examples of snack food. Supermarkets or even garage shops also sell things like hard boiled eggs, mini packs of sushi, mini pots of hoummous, cubes of cheese and other things.

Yes I am aware of the Blue Zones. Somewhere in Greece, Japan, Italy, America and Costa Rico. It's nothing new or groundbreaking.

They eat healthily. They fast for the health benefits. They watch their portion controls and never totally full. They drink in moderation. And the idea of going to the gym isn't the thing, instead it's making other choices to do these things more naturally and moderation.

Even in the UK can chose the above way of life but many don't. Many wouldn't know moderation if it kicked them up their arse.

Yes they live until their 90/100's but so do people in the UK and the rest of the world. Doesn't mean they aren't obese.

" garage shops also sell things like hard boiled eggs, mini packs of sushi, mini pots of hoummous"

You obviously go to very posh garage shops. I haven't seen these things even in the big supermarkets near me.
What you can find varies quite a lot by area. We have a couple of Pret a Mangers where I live, but nothing like how they're on every corner in London. We have a Greggs on almost every corner
I was surprised to find that Cafe Nero in London sells salad because it doesn't where I live.

"Yes they live until their 90/100's but so do people in the UK and the rest of the world. Doesn't mean they aren't obese."

How many obese people live to be a 100? What area has high life expectancy, but as much obesity as here? There might be somewhere, but in general areas where people are healthier in general don't have as much obesity.

I wouldn't know @Gwenhwyfar the figures. I'm trying to remember the various publicly known celebrations. Like many societies they would also have various health issues associated with food. One of the reasonings about eating 80% of what we need is because associated risks.

One of the massive things that stuck out for me about the Blue Zones, when it was transferred to the USA the moderation part wasn't included instead it's a blanket ban. Many have followed plant based whereas the diets of the Blue Zone are vast and varied and include meat.

I was in town with DH just before lockdown, we wanted to go somewhere for lunch and had to try 3 places before finding one that served a non-fattening option i.e. a salad or soup rather than bread/crisps/chips/pasta/cakes. By then it was no treat any more. Anywhere at all you can buy food to go, excepting a few urban/vegan type places, at least 90% of what they serve will be highly indulgent. That's not really offering a choice. Rifling through fridges of prepack sandwiches and pasties to find some dried out carrot and houmous or racks of sweets to find some nuts or 3 day old basket of fruit.

So if you know about the blue zones you’ll know they have the optimum environment for living well and that environment shapes health outcomes. Fair enough if you don’t think other countries should aspire to that, but then really unfair and inaccurate of you to blame individual choice.

Do you think individuals in these blue zone countries are healthy by choice alone then? And if they were born into a country with unhealthy outcomes they would all just beat the odds cause it’s their individual choice? What did you make of the article in Ghana (and numerous other countries where fast food is brought in and obesity rises?) just because a gun is not being put to peoples heads it doesn’t mean it we shouldn’t try and create healthy environments for people. Clearly the availability of fast foods are having an affect, why an earmark shouldn’t we put effort into countering this and other causes? Not saying it’s easy to change environments and certainly not quickly but we should at least try, the positive affect of the smoking laws has been amazing, although appreciate food is more complex. We should be ambitious for peoples health.

I did say prepared food to distinguish between fruit etc. Maybe I should have said packaged.

You will also know that it's not just the diet and optimum environment as you put it.

It's also about the way of live. The required number of adults to support one another, to alleviate each others stresses.

Even though they have been highlighted as the 5 countries were people seem to live longer, it doesn't make them any healthier. Only clusters die without heart problems, diabetes, obesity etc not the majority.

The citizens within those 5 countries don't suffer as much with degenerative conditions like in the UK. This isn't down to food alone nor their environment. But they remain active, whereas in the UK the mindset seems to be once you're a certain age that's it. They carry on working well past their 70's etc. There's 9 things that were mentioned that plays a role into longevity. They weren't trying to live a healthy life to begin with, just have a life with purpose.

One of the things they did when they went back to the States was work with restaurants to provide healthier options. Why does it need someone coming in and telling a restaurant how to produce healthier options? Surely if your customers are requesting certains dishes you introduce them onto the menu because you have to adapt with the times.

Yes exactly it’s about their way of life, they aren’t having to try to be healthy as their way of life is optimum for a naturally healthy life, so not an individual choice is it!! And your way of life is affected by the environment you live in, like you say (amongst other things) it’s a culture of carrying on being active, having a support network - as a society we can put things in place to encourage this, it’s why public health exists. But you never answered my question - do you think these people are innately healthy and if they were all born into a country with poor health outcomes they would all buck the trend?

Although interestingly some of the research has been questioned because of a lack of BC's to confirm the ages of those claimed.

Back in 2006 Okinawa were talking about the increased obesity levels that had been emerging over a couple of decades. Yet when the Blue Zone stuff was produced the year before, everyone was living longer healthier lives.

‘ in the UK the mindset seems to be once you're a certain age that's it. They carry on working well past their 70's etc.’

this is true and a cultural thing in this country, another example of where you live influencing health choices and outcomes. The government for example could put something in place to encourage employers to hire older employees (random quick example, obviously) and this would be an example of a policy trying to improve health outcomes. There’s so much that could be done if we don’t resort to the lazy argument of it bring completely an individuals fault.

Well evidence from within the 5 owns countries says that the citizens aren't as healthy as claimed despite living long lives. They still have issues with obesity, heart problems etc just the same was as the rest of the world.

They are still making choices to include things that are harmful to them. They still smoke, drink and eat too much and their health figures show this.

Forcing businesses to create jobs is lazy thinking.

Some of those within the 5 countries are still working past retirement. Others stay active from doing those everyday things we all do. No job needed. The old person could decide like those citizens to get off their arse and go for a walk. However they decide to stay at home.

It wouldn’t be forcing employers to create jobs it would be encouraging them to hire older employees, like some do with disabled candidates. I did say it was a random quick example, there are other things that could be put in place!!! Funny how you said you were well aware of blue zones but now you’re picking flaws wherever you can. It’s a well regarded study but yes no study is perfect. You’re determined to blame individuals 100% despite all evidence to the contrary. So carry on , but the obesity problem will never be solved with ignorant attitudes like yours.

@Gwenhwyfar

"What even is a regional food?"

That probably tells us all we need to know about food culture in the UK lol.

You know, this is a common idea, but as a person who is not from the UK, I see the UK as having a real food culture, it's just been lost to some degree. But there are all kinds of lovely agricultural ingredients and dishes that use them. But it seems like it's been supplanted somewhat by something very similar to what they call the Standard American Diet. Which seems to go hand in hand with families eating separately, or eating out while running around to jobs, school, lessons, sports...

I'm from Canada, and like the US one of the things that means you don't have a really common food tradition is there are a lot of different cultures that settled, and so people's food traditions, even in the same area, may be quite different. It almost seems to have meant that it was easy for all this fake food to push its way in.

I think for instance it is really interesting to look at the school food programs in France. Here kids typically have to pay for cafeteria food if it is available at all, and it will be nuggets, pizza, fries, etc. Lots of kids have a packed lunch which may be filled with packaged food. Kids are expected to eat in 10 min and be outside, so they bolt it down and go.

In France they sit at a table with actual plates and cutlery and eat a planned meal that draws on typical French ingredients and dishes, and is designed with the idea of developing good food habits and enjoyment of different foods.

If they tried that here, there would be 6000 different fad diets being demanded as options.

It is possible to be aware of research and also know about the flaws, it would be foolish to ignore the bits that don't work into a particular narrative. It was you that was insistent that the Blue Zone was an healthy option when figures from within those countries highlight differently.

Further findings through dna testing have found the possible dna link which was rubbished at one point.

Sardinia the place the blue zone was mapped out on, the second place that was then visited and resulted in the various books and other merch was Okinawa. Interestingly enough these books were written to suit the narrative of their authors and not the lifestyles and health of those people.

None of the 5 countries has evidence to support the theory that this lifestyle is fully healthy. It might minimise those health risks which we all know to begin with. There is no evidence that supports those people aren't obese because well they are whether they live rurally or not.

Yes I said no research is perfect, but the over arching points still stand of blue zones, there are also lots of other articles out there which back up it’s not all personal choice. I’ve never seen anything to say it’s all personal choice, can you point me in the direction of any research?

You also just said - Further findings through dna testing have found the possible dna link which was rubbished at one point. - well this is as far from personal choice as you can get! I said previously I believe genes play at part too, and well as a million other things.

Do you believe it’s all down to personal choice and there are no other factors involved?

As in the over arching point being that health is shaped by environment. If the healthy option is the easy option people have better health outcomes.

This gives a great summary for anyone else interested www.bluezones.com/2018/08/future-of-health-care-is-creating-environmental-change/

1. Portion size and lack of will power. We see food on the plate and we eat it despite what our stomach says. Research has included having a group self serve and the other secretly topped up. Over 70% of those whose food was secretly topped up carried on eating despite them being full. Many people eat a whole chicken breast to themselves because they think the proper size is too small, they chose to ignore what they really know. Everyone does it and in moderation it's fine to indulge.

2)It's been proven scientifically that the more variety on our plates the more we will consume. Ok our sensory also plays a part of course, but that comes from all foods and is fascinating in itself.

3. Distractions - we chose to eat in front on the tv - in front of the computer etc. Because of this we eat more even though we don't realise it. Again evidence easily available.

4. We are a nation that chooses alcohol, same with the diet fad.Alcohol also has an impact on how much or little we eat. These include the 3am kebab and raiding the fridge for cheese etc.

5)Own insecurities etc influence what we consume when we are around others. Diving into the tub of ice cream etc all choices.

We chose to eat the creamy chicken pasta with cheese because it tastes nice. Yet the chicken and pasta could be turned into something more healthier.

Many people chose to skip meals and there's a whole load of yes/no in support of this. Even those in the 5 countries believe in fasting and follow something like the 8/12 or whatever it is called.

When we feel hunger we never question this and consume food. Again this is a choice, another option is to have a drink as thirst can produce the same effect. Even if it is hunger it is fine for us to feel this. Yet fasting isn't mentioned by the Blue Zone site

Oh and unlike what is claimed on the link it was not Dan Buetter who the founder of this concept. It was Michel Poulin who identified the first Blue Zone in Sardinia he then brought in Dan who saw the commercial aspects in certain part of the lifestyle. I suggest reading up about the original findings in terms of lifestyle and diet.