To think 'big food' industry is to blame for the obesity epidemic, not individuals?

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When I read on MN, and when I talk to people IRL, there's an underlying attitude to obesity that it is all down to willpower, or lack of, and individual choice over whether to be fat or thin. If we all tried a little harder and were disciplined, everyone could be their ideal weight.

I recently got on to reading some books on processed food, they are not new concepts, the ideas have been around a while. Lots of scientists and MDs from the US, where the obesity epidemic is a little further down the road than in the UK, have written about the addictive nature of processed food, books such as 'Wheat Belly', 'The Dorito Effect', Robert Lustig has done many talks on it. In the UK, Joanna Blythman has wrote quite a bit on the UK food industry.

Some have linked processed food to activating dopamine receptors in the brain so it works like other addictions. Yet cannot escape it once we walk into a supermarket, most of what is for sale there is very highly processed food. It's all sugar, salt, wheat, the bad fats (processed oils like rapeseed, not natural fats which are healthy). Flavours created by amazing scientists so you'd rather eat the flavour chemicals than the actual food.

Yet we are telling obese people, some of whom may be using food addiction to deal with past trauma, lifestyle stress etc, 'it is your choice, what you eat, you need to try harder, have more self respect, more willpower'.

I see obese people now as 'you are a victim of 'big food', the companies (only a handful of global billion pound companies) that produce and cleverly advertise and use supermarkets to sell this highly refined, highly addictive processed food'. If they were educated and told it's not their fault, they might decide they don't want to play the 'big food' game anymore.

A bee crawling on my kitchen floor and not buzzing at the window suggests it is in distress. When I give it sugar water it starts flying around and buzzing, so I open the door or window and it flies away. This suggests to me that the sugar water is a quick pick-me-up.

@Macncheeseballs

I'm not hugely influenced by the media and marketing, I'm more influenced by the desire to live a long and healthy life

Apologies, I was talking about the masses as opposed to you personally.

There could be some good in restricting the food industry directly. Maybe especially looking at portion sizes. It's very instructive to look at what a typical McDonald's meal looked like when they first opened. The Quarter Pounder, when it was introduced, was considered a huge burger, and it still came with a tiny thing of chips and a tiny pop. Most people, even grown men, ate the regular sized burger. That's for fast food, not anything even meant to be healthy.

But there are probably other lifestyle changes that will have to encouraged at a social level too. More walking - if kids could walk to and from school, that would be great. Communities designed to be walkable, cars discouraged in planning. This would have other benefits too. Encourage biking. Change the culture around being out of the house so much, eating out.

We've also switched to a culture where salaries and prices tend to assume there will be two parents working, except for the well off. We've seen some of the limits of that with the pandemic, it leaves little flexibility when needs at home become more intense. Anyone with a disabled child or partner or elder knows this already. But even where that isn't the case, we've already started to cut corners in many cases with things like food and exercise.

The other thing that I have noticed is food culture. Countries with a strong regional food culture seem to be somewhat protected from food fads, the diet industry (which is a cause of obesity) and eating in a disorganised way. So maybe there is a need to put more emphasis on regional food traditions.

We also expect food to be cheap. The amount of threads on here where people almost boast about being able to feed a family of 4 on £20 p/w unless you’re only eating lentils and veg then it’s probably not going to be highly nutritious.

Caveat: I know some people can only afford £20 p/w. But that’s sort of the point, poorer people are more obese and they are less likely to eat a fully rounded nutritious diet. And I’m sure someone will come on and say they’re an amazing cook and poor. But I’m talking about mass data. Not individual anecdotes

The big food companies don’t force people to sit on their arses and eat pies and cakes.

Does bother me that in 2020 people want to blame anyone but, themselves

@NameChangeNugget that is very narrow minded, blaming individuals will just increase obesity more and make more money for massive fast food corporations. Do you think say Americans are more greedy than other nationalities then? You don’t think there is some part that is down to environment? Or, you just don’t care how difficult it is for people, they should just be able to resist? You’ll be on the wrong side of history if you think this way, just like the people screaming nanny state when they banned smoking inside.

The other thing that I have noticed is food culture. Countries with a strong regional food culture seem to be somewhat protected from food fads, the diet industry (which is a cause of obesity) and eating in a disorganised way. So maybe there is a need to put more emphasis on regional food traditions.

This is v interesting. I used to work for a French company. Lots of (slim) french people, lots of trips to Paris. One thing I always found interesting was how if I was wondering around Paris after work, the restaurants were all basically serving French food. It was all delicious (I had one of the best steaks of my life in a slightly dodgy looking bar), but v little variety. A lot of my colleagues, when coming to London, would take the opportunity to go out and get other cuisines because it just wasn't as accessible/good at home. (And yes, I built up a nice little list of recommended places for them... particularly Asian food of all types!)

Anecdotally, French people are always thin! .

On takeaways and portion sizes, I am often frustrated by this. Also, it's all of a certain type. Even just real convenience, everyone-knows-it's-not-healthy takeaway food like pies seem to be much bigger now than I remember them being when I was younger.

I often think when I'm out and about that 'm a bit peckish and would like "proper" food but don't want a full meal. And my options are almost nonexistent. Inevitably in those moments I land up somewhere like Itsu as their portions are small but am resentful because I'm paying the same as I would be for a full meal deal somewhere else for what is, ultimately, more of a snack.

I think street food is interesting for this - My memory of food being sold from stalls at markets etc was much smaller portions. Usually a stall would just specialise in one or two things - almost a taster. If you wanted a whole meal, you'd go to three different stalls. Or you could just get a snack. eg A skewer of meat, a portion of a veg prepared a certain way, a small packet of pastry. Now, it's all these massive portions. You can't even get a hot dog from a street vendor without it being at least twice the size of hot dogs in my day.

There's a street food staff in my local town that does Thai and the reason I like it is that the portions are quite small (and priced accordingly) but it's more than enough for a treat takeaway lunch. There's a greek one next door to him and while his food is delicious, I NEVER order it as one gyro is enough to feed about 3 people (and again, from memory, when I visited Greece for the first time 25 years ago, a gyro wasn't huge. It was easily handled in one hand as you walked down to the beach).

I often think when I'm out and about that 'm a bit peckish and would like "proper" food but don't want a full meal. And my options are almost nonexistent

I know, even Pret seem to have stopped their ‘slim’ half sandwiches which were great.

Not the healthiest but I sometimes get a Filet o Fish, no fries and a bottle of water or a black coffee. It’s actually quite a light lunch and nicer, better value and healthier than a lot of takeaway sandwiches.

It’s actually incredibly hard in America to get small good nutritious food. Wether a sandwich or snack to a supermarket.
The only place I found is whole foods which is insanely expensive. If you go to a bog standard supermarket it’s mental. It’s in your face constantly.
Even the equivalent of boots sells jumbo packs of sweets and crisps.

I think it's possible that it's a combination of lack of personal responsibility, lack of education and companies selling food meeting customer demands.
You don't thrive as a business if you don't give people what they want. They want big portions, so that's what's offered. Because if you don't, your competitors will. And people will go there. They want cheaper food, so companies look at how they can deliver that.
I'm overweight, and I know that ultimately I choose what goes in the trolley, and what goes in my mouth. But lifestyle and budget have a huge impact on that choice.
While I've been furloughed at not working I've made a lot more cook from scratch meals, and they have been healthier. I'm now back at work. I don't have the time in all honesty. And buying all the ingredients worked out more expensive. Not vastly so but enough for me to notice.
A four portion meal (2 days worth here for 2 people) with decent ingredients £8-10 where I shop, add another £3 for a packet of fruit for dessert. They do a 'meal deal' which is pizzas, wedges, ice cream, onion rings. 4 meals worth = £5. That's a saving of around a fiver, and if you need that fiver, there's your motivation.
Similarly I've just bought some strawberries. £2.50. Next ailse a pack of 4 chocolate bars £1.
I think that's the kind of thing that needs to change.
It's ok saying it's all down to willpower and personal responsibility, but when your choices are limited by more than just your willpower, it starts to complicate things.

Why do people trot out the line about there was no obesity before a certain time period.

Back in the Potato famine, the rich would overeat to show their good health and wealth. This wasn't just inclusive to the Potato famine, look at other famines throughout history and the rich were obese.

China used to view plumpness as positive. Nigeria used to have fattening huts. Parts of Mexico thought fat thighs was an essential part of the female body. Look at Polynesian figures. Renoirs the Bather. Lillian Russell famous actress/singer in the early 1900's she was overweight and a sex symbol.

By the start of the 1900's a woman's weight was a symbol of her fertility and beauty. For men the weight meant power.

Wrong time period in history to compare to? Not a problem Henry 8th. Still want more I can provide.

@Blackandwhitehorse nothing narrow minded, I sit on my arse eat too much regardless of the food being healthy or not. I don't really move around ergo I get fat. It happens to me every single time. It happened to many during CV who sat at home and put on weight.

I always thought this place was full of batch cookers and feed a family for a week on one chicken 🤣

Yes in certain cultures and periods in history being bigger used to be seen as good, what’s your point? All your doing is proving the point that the environment which you live in shapes your health.

And ok you sit on your arse and eat too much, but if you were in an environment that forced you to move around more, where food wasn’t so easily accessible then this wouldn’t be the case. Have a look at the blue zones studies (Lots of info online), it looks at countries where the life span is the longest and this is due to them living in certain environments (I.e. being pushed towards healthier behaviours like walking, lack of junk food, lack of stress etc.) It’s emphatically not to do with people have more ‘willpower’

I often think when I'm out and about that 'm a bit peckish and would like "proper" food but don't want a full meal. And my options are almost nonexistent. Inevitably in those moments I land up somewhere like Itsu as their portions are small but am resentful because I'm paying the same as I would be for a full meal deal somewhere else for what is, ultimately, more of a snack.

When I go to town I treat myself to a cheese, sun dried tomato and basil scone at John Lewis for lunch. Not a cheap option I know but filling and tasty.

Obesity is way more complicated than just ‘willpower’.

There is definitely a genetic component with certain genes making you more hungry or crave fat more than a person without those genes.

I’m currently trying to lose weight and despite my best efforts I’m hungry all the time. By hungry I mean I’ll wake up early in the morning and not be able to get back to sleep level of hungry or I’ll be at work and at 11am I can’t concentrate because I’m so ravenous.No, I’m not starving myself, this is with eating three meals a day.

It's a combination of having information and taking responsibility for what you put in your mouth.

Years ago I read a book called The Food Scandal which opened my eyes to how big companies manipulate us, not just through adverts but through where certain products are placed in the supermarkets (distance from door, height on shelf). It raised my awareness. More recently my GP suggested I lose weight to help me control my BP. I've re-educated my palette over a few years, and it's working. It certainly requires willpower but I'm happy with taking responsibility for what I put in my mouth. Ain't nobody forcing me (and I'm well aware of the addictive substances in Doritos and Pringles!)

Bluetongue, if that happens to me I get up and at least have a drink, or a small amount of cereal, or a couple of oatcakes and cheese. You have to listen to your body, not punish yourself.

"The other thing that I have noticed is food culture. Countries with a strong regional food culture seem to be somewhat protected from food fads, the diet industry (which is a cause of obesity) and eating in a disorganised way. So maybe there is a need to put more emphasis on regional food traditions."

Sort of, but fast food restaurants in France make more money than almost anywhere else. I don't think this emphasis on regional foods is something you can do retrospectively either.

but then again. fast food on it's own is not the issue.
it's when food high in calories/low in nutrients are the main source of food.
wrt france mc donalds and other fast food chains are often not a cheap option compared to a cafe that offers fresh sandwiches.

"Similarly I've just bought some strawberries. £2.50. Next ailse a pack of 4 chocolate bars £1."

Yes, tax junk food and use the money to subsidise healthy food. It won't change everything straight away as so many of us prefer the taste of the junk food.
Strawberries are £2 max where I live and £1 from the stall in the street.
I do buy them sometimes, but other summer fruit I will only buy frozen.

"Yes in certain cultures and periods in history being bigger used to be seen as good, what’s your point? All your doing is proving the point that the environment which you live in shapes your health."

Yes, and even then only a minority would have been very large.
Look at how we talk about Rubenesque women as fat, but compared to today they're probably smaller than average.
Marilyn Monroe is spoken about as an icon of non-slim women, but she had a waist of around 22/23 inches.

"There is definitely a genetic component with certain genes making you more hungry or crave fat more than a person without those genes."

Yes, but I don't believe it's genes that mean that countries with lots of cheap junk food around and large portions have bigger people than countries where food is healthier and portions smaller.
Genes may explain the difference between individuals within one country, but I don't believe it explains why e.g. some European countries have more large people than others.