To think 'big food' industry is to blame for the obesity epidemic, not individuals?

[aintnothinbutagstring]

When I read on MN, and when I talk to people IRL, there's an underlying attitude to obesity that it is all down to willpower, or lack of, and individual choice over whether to be fat or thin. If we all tried a little harder and were disciplined, everyone could be their ideal weight.

I recently got on to reading some books on processed food, they are not new concepts, the ideas have been around a while. Lots of scientists and MDs from the US, where the obesity epidemic is a little further down the road than in the UK, have written about the addictive nature of processed food, books such as 'Wheat Belly', 'The Dorito Effect', Robert Lustig has done many talks on it. In the UK, Joanna Blythman has wrote quite a bit on the UK food industry.

Some have linked processed food to activating dopamine receptors in the brain so it works like other addictions. Yet cannot escape it once we walk into a supermarket, most of what is for sale there is very highly processed food. It's all sugar, salt, wheat, the bad fats (processed oils like rapeseed, not natural fats which are healthy). Flavours created by amazing scientists so you'd rather eat the flavour chemicals than the actual food.

Yet we are telling obese people, some of whom may be using food addiction to deal with past trauma, lifestyle stress etc, 'it is your choice, what you eat, you need to try harder, have more self respect, more willpower'.

I see obese people now as 'you are a victim of 'big food', the companies (only a handful of global billion pound companies) that produce and cleverly advertise and use supermarkets to sell this highly refined, highly addictive processed food'. If they were educated and told it's not their fault, they might decide they don't want to play the 'big food' game anymore.

For me, I have a really troubled relationship with food that began when I was 5 and the school nurse told my mum I was underweight. I was then overfed and ended up having to go on a diet at 10. It became an obsession and I ended up going through a spectrum of eating disorders. Now are nearly 40 I'm morbidly obese. I know exactly what to do to lose weight, but psychologically, I can't.
I do a lot of cooking for my family from scratch and use fresh, local produce, but do tend to make it less healthy by cooking in butter or adding cream!

Yes, and even then only a minority would have been very large.

Definitely agree, obesity is a much bigger (pun unintentional) problem now! Some poster also mentioned lockdown causing weight gain which is yet another example of the environment we live in shaping our health and weight, not an example of individual willpower as they meant it to be. And there’s also the psychological factors to consider too, people have very troubling relationships with food these days.

" Some poster also mentioned lockdown causing weight gain which is yet another example of the environment we live in shaping our health and weight, not an example of individual willpower "

Yes, I was somewhat active just by being before lockdown, didn't have to use willpower.

I have been wfh during lockdown and have lost weight. Only about 3 pounds, but I'm still glad it's not the other way round! How? Took a walk every day, kept out of the kitchen during the day, and watched portion size - early on we were concerned about food shortages so we were stretching things ever so slightly. Back to personal responsibility again.

What even is a regional food?

@Blackandwhitehorse

And what was the point? I was engaging with the discussion, and why it's not a simple case of blaming the food industry. That there was people overweight long before we could buy a tin of beans. Those were just a small selection highlighting this.

And of course the more you move the more energy you burn we all know this and the benefits. Those choices have nothing to do with the environment we live in for many. Some people chose to drive, cycle, walk, eat celery a bar of chocolate etc.

I smoke because I chose to.
I drink because I chose to
I smoke weed because I chose to
I eat chocolate because I chose to when stoned!!
I chose to be greedy and pile up my plate regardless of if it's healthy or not.

At times I have given up many of the above because I have the will power, the inner strength to say no.

‘Those choices have nothing to do with the environment we live in for many. Some people chose to drive, cycle, walk, eat celery a bar of chocolate etc’.

You’re very wrong. One example - in America is some areas they have no choice but to drive as there are literally no pavements. In Amsterdam the road networks are set up for cycling - so guess what, more people cycle. Have a look at the studies which I mentioned on Blue Zones - an actual research study not just your opinion or own experience. I’m not saying it’s just availability of junk food I’m saying it’s the whole environment.

I asked what was your point in terms of fat being a status thing through some periods in history, as that is another example of cultural influence on health NOT willpower.

Also have a think about smoking, it’s massively decreased since the ban. An example of policy and change in our environment inflicting and shaping our health choices.

Do some proper reading - there is so much out there with people who actually specialise in this area.

very interrsting and enlightening discussion.
thank you all!

@ICouldHaveCheckedFirst good for you, but some people have gained weight due to lockdown. Again your experience isn’t universal. The point is if we can make the environment easier for people to stay healthy (and again this is what the research shows) this works and countries which do this have healthier citizens. Why wouldn’t we want to do this? Why would we want to make it harder for people and for them to have to rely on willpower- which is a contested matter anyway.

You don't thrive as a business if you don't give people what they want. They want big portions, so that's what's offered. Because if you don't, your competitors will. And people will go there. They want cheaper food, so companies look at how they can deliver that.

I think this is true. I also think there's room in the market for someone to come in with a clever fast food solution for food that may be less healthy and/or high calorie but in smaller portions OR for healthier all round full portions. I've discussed this with my nephew at length and we have a list of things we'd like to be able to buy when at a train station needing either - a snack to tide us over or a meal that isn't a pie or similar. Our list includes: slice of quiche, samosas (one, not a portion of 5 giant ones), small portions of stew/pie etc with mash, one slice of bread sandwiches, pizza slice. We're both keen to come up with more ideas like quiche.

Meanwhile, last time I took DS to a food market and he asked for a fruit skewer dipped in chocolate - on serving, I discovered it was 3 skewers and he was then offered multiple additional toppings from smarties to cream...! Obviously he wanted it all, but would have been more than happy with his strawberry and banana skewer dipped in chocolate.

@bluefoxmug if you’re interested in this topic and just general health stuff Dr Rangan Chatterjee has some great podcasts

@BlingLoving Leon do really tasty healthy fast food They had plans to open up in a deprived area with reduced costs even though they knew initially it would make a loss. So have some ethics too!

I do proper reading thanks. How am I wrong when I said the same thing as you, people make those choices. People in Amsterdam will ride a bike if they chose to. Parts of the USA are isolated in the same way as parts of the UK and well the world. I decided it wasn't me and made a choice as do billions of others every year.

And if the smoking ban was effective then why was there an additional ban this year to help discourage young smokers who are attracted to menthol cigarettes?

Studies also show that the ban may have helped with the decline that had been steadily decreasing since the 1970's.

So are you saying those with eating disorders have no will power of their own and are only influenced by outside sources?

You’re really not getting it. If cycling is easier, cheaper and safer for people than driving then of course more people are going to make that positive health choice. Simple. Clearly illustrated in countries which do this.

Smoking rates have gone down dramatically since the ban. It’s widely acknowledged as a public success. There will always be certain demographics where further help is needed.

You clearly aren’t doing any reading on the matter, as it’s agreed by public health bodies and researchers on this matter than the environment shapes our health. Interesting research has also been conducted into willpower which I can link you to if you want.

Good point about snacks. Interesting prepared healthy snacks just don’t exist here. It’s crisps, chocolate or a ‘health’ food bar that is nothing of the sort.

Really interesting thread - have read everything and most of my thoughts on all sides of the argument have been covered by other posters.

One thing that does strike me is the way that food has ceased to be regarded as fuel but is now bound up with alot of emotional language. People describe "loving" food, food is offered as a comfort in times of stress, if emotional dysfunction is prevalent in a home then children can associate offerings of food with affection and attention if their parents are lacking in other ways.

In a previous relationship I fell foul of being manipulated via food - my weight has always been an issue for me and my ex would offer me a treat and if I rejected it he would accuse me of rejecting him when he was only trying to be nice because he loved me, despite knowing I was absolutely trying to avoid over-eating. Because I am conflict averse I would cave and feel guilty for hurting his feelings and also for giving in.

Personal responsibility is part of the deal, sure, but marketing of food is often strongly tied into expressing love and being generous and caring - add in the extra of "faux healthy" processed foods and it takes a massive amount of will-power not to be seduced.

Also, how often we eat and why we eat has been manipulated to suit the growth of food industrialisation. The concept of breakfast was introduced massively when Kellog wanted to increase his business and we were encouraged to eat to that timescale for "health" reasons. Breakfast is not mandatory but we are encouraged to believe we will not function healthily without "starting the day properly". Actually, we should eat when we are genuinely hungry, but the three or four meals a day plus snacks culture means we rarely get to the point of real hunger. This monkeys with insulin production and other hormones which regulate our consumption.

I think the amount of manipulation that goes on with regard to food is massive and engineered towards keeping the cash cow of the food industry healthy - and by extension those industries that depend on the fall-out of lifestyle choices to keep going - pharmaceuticals, fitness, fashion etc etc all get a slice of the pie we stuff our faces with.

It's hard to resist all the strands of manipulation that contribute to obesity and bad choices and it is utterly by design.

An interesting bit of research I did lead me to Edward Bernays the father of modern marketing and an expert in propaganda whose work was utilised heavily by the Nazis in WW2. Very interesting stuff.

There are no easy answers.

wrt cycling in amsterdam - most supermarkets there don't have a car park. of course cycling is the transport of choice then.

Eating disorders are an incredibly complex mental health issue and I’m sure the different variants have a variety of causes. But I’ve never read up or researched on what causes, for instance, anorexia so I don’t feel qualified to comment.

@OldQueen1969 such an interesting point with the fuel verses emotional side of food. It’s such a complex matter. I really hope we as a society can move away from blaming individuals I think it’s actually so damaging for society as a whole to do this.

everything in moderation but i feel that we have become 'snack addicts'
especially the kids
go for a walk = must take snack + drink and other shite
go to a film = huge box of popcorn and drink
child comes out of school in a mood = must be hungry
Also no-one will take the blame for their own problem ' its always someone elses fault'
its choc by the checkout, its takeaways always open, its the manufacturers adding stuff to what we eat

And how many people binge on food for an emotional need which is affecting our moods?

We all know we need food for energy. If we take in too much food and don't use enough energy we get fat. Food industry has nothing to do with this and it's nothing new. We were fat before the food industry came along because of many reasons including health.

And so what people in Amsterdam cycle. If they eat too much they will be fat. Riding a bike in itself doesn't automatically mean a healthier lifestyle. Look at the stuff done on the junk food diets and people lose weight, not good for the health but great on the waistline.

Many people chose food to comfort them this has no bearing on the industry. We can make these things within our own homes. That crispie square bar - how many used to make them at home in the 70's and before. Many could walk into their kitchens now and make a massive batch of them, many probably have.

That triple chocolate cake to feed 12. Again this can be made at home with basic ingredients, doesn't even have to be quality and probably more unhealthier than the shop bought!! But the food industry doesn't tell anyone to make the cake. The food industry doesn't tell a family of 4 to eat in one serving. The food industry doesn't tell one person to eat the whole thing. All of that is and always has been down to the individual.

The Amsterdam point was one example of how the environment can influence positive health choices, there are many many more examples relating to restriction of junk food, smoking etc.,

I think you’re trying to make a point that people can just make a cake rather than buy one so it’s nothing to do with the food industry? You are missing the point - it’s the availability and convenience of the ready make cake that is the draw. Allowing many more people to quickly and conveniently overeat.

‘The food industry has nothing t do with it’ - Really?? They make vast amounts of money from it, and just take a look at what the emergence of fast food is doing in Ghana www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/health/ghana-kfc-obesity.amp.html

However I sense you’ve made your mind up so I’m not investing my energy further. If you would like more examples or studies though, I can provide many more.

"What even is a regional food?"

That probably tells us all we need to know about food culture in the UK lol.

"Interesting prepared healthy snacks just don’t exist here. It’s crisps, chocolate or a ‘health’ food bar that is nothing of the sort."

You can get little sachets of fruit, very expensive of course, but they're part of meal deals in supermarkets and can be an easy way for people to get more fruit.
I think it should be illegal for things like meal deals to penalise you for not having an unhealthy snack. There's a cafe near me where I used to take a mars bar to the counter to get the deal price and then leave it there.

No I haven't made my mind up. I just haven't been convinced that obesity is the sole responsibility of the food industry because this doesn't account for obesity before this came along.

It wasn't just rich people who were overweight. People of various backgrounds were fat. There was no convenience food. Even during times of rationing when we were a hell of a lot more active, people were still overweight.

Food being cooked for us doesn't take away that choice. If we couldn't buy it we would still cook it and eat it. Yes it will take longer depending on where your local shop is, but it wouldn't deter us.

Amsterdams live expectancy. Females live until 79.1, males 73.3.

Born in London, females 84.5 and males 80.7.

This seems odd considering Amsterdam started building their cycle system back in the 70's and live healthier.