To think Prince Andrew needs to stop being bewildered and...

[chaoticisatroll55]

get himself over to the States to account for his actions and to give evidence for those poor victims of abuse. He's a bloody disgrace.

No, we can’t know for certain but it’s my own theory. Which I’m allowed to have. 🙄

@chaoticisatroll55 I don't think anyone would suggest it's a good idea for him to go over to the States!

He's offered to answer written questions in the UK, the FBI want to speak to him in person on American soil....Diplomacy won't allow this to happen....

We can't know whether it is likely or unlikely that PA knew the girls were trafficked.

I don't think he would care. And that's as bad as knowing.

I know he's not the most intellectual of beings (I remember a poster on here comparing him to a bag of spanners) but did he really think a high schooler was just hanging around with billionaires and actually wanted to have sex with him? Someone about the same age as his daughter?

I don't think he will ever go to the US and I don't think many, if any, of the royals care. There have been numerous times the royals have been friends with paedophiles and have supported them.

They don't see 'normal' people as entirely human, we are lesser beings .

@Porcupineinwaiting

Okay...........so your saying my DF is lying? Right.......

I think the letching happened to me once when I was under age. A friend of a friend. Awful experience. Ran away immediately. Definitely had a few whistles in the street etc. But most of my experiences with adult men including teachers and my parents friends were normal. Sorry, my experience. And yes this was the 1980s. Many men are total arseholes. Many are not. Certainly not defending those who are, but when I’ve spoken to Men about it they are universally condeming of such behaviour. They knew it was wrong so they didn’t do it.

I think it’s unlikely he actually realised the girl was trafficked

So ?

The law was framed to deliberately preclude the "I didn't know" defence. Or is there a movement I am unaware of that wants to change that ?

I repeat my observation about the sickening number of excuses creeping into this story that are straight from the Rape Apologists handbook. Page 1.

The tone of some posters - whether intentional or not - is worryingly reminiscent of the apologists for abusers and rapists.

Don't be ridiculous. A cynical view of the American court system and ambulance chasing lawyers doesn't make anyone a rape apologist. It makes them realists.

Prince Andrew as useless as he is I'm in a position of power. The girls he was having sex with on that island had been trafficked and groomed. I hope none of these posters have daughters. If so...well you wouldn't mind that happening to them then?

You know that for a fact, do you? I don't.

So much in the press, put there by the lawyers. So may changes in stories. It's become impossible to find the truth in there now.

@Littlecaf no, I'm saying he's being a little selective in his recollection. I'm not saying he was a letch and thought it ok, of course there were plenty of decent men around. But, like sexual harassment in the work place, there was a lot of it around and it was widely tolerated. He will have been aware of that.

@Mummyoflittledragon

AlternativePerspective Hmmm. I’m not sure I believe the FBI when they refuted PA claims of offering to cooperate. Perhaps his calls were ignored. Or the narrative suits them.

I don’t think the queen is a paedophile rape apologist. She’s an elderly lady with a lot going on in her life, trying to hold things together with an idiot wayward son.

The Maitlis interview was a train smash. Arrogant snake. However, I also agree that he should not go due to the Harry Dunn situation.

Actually I think @fuckinghellapeacock is completely right, the queen is basically an apologist for her son and his disgusting behaviour, therefore could be seen to be condoning it. Although I'd suggest the motivation is entirely self preservation for the royal family. I cannot understand the praise for her, or how anyone believes she gives a shit about ordinary people in this country. I don't understand having a royal family- by accident of birth having such immense privilege and adulation. Bizarre in 2020.

Don't be ridiculous. A cynical view of the American court system and ambulance chasing lawyers doesn't make anyone a rape apologist. It makes them realists.

I am reading some statements that are almost textbook examples of "defences" you hear in court ... "He didn't know" is not a defence and should never be one. And at least one poster has used that phrase.

So I'll carry on pointing that out where it arises. Because I have no doubt that before this case is over, there's going to be a swell of "sentiment" that will try to excuse Prince Andrew on the grounds he didn't know (which, incidentally is admitting the facts of the offence).

I thought we had gotten past the era where celebrity was a licence to sleaze it up without fear of consequences.

What @SimonJT said.
Guilty as sin.

Also... I don't believe for a minute that JE killed himself. I also wonder now if GM may be 'suicidal' or is showing early signs of covid.. will she end up on a ventilator? Will the medical staff work round the clock to save her but unable to beat the covid!!?

Why can’t some people realise that this isn’t about the victims age, but the fact she was trafficked for sex, which makes it rape. The fact she was 17 is horrific but the legal issue is - she could not give consent because of her situation, so those who had sex with her raped her.

If any watched the show Succession, which is about a family of billionaires, there is a story that mirrors this one. The family own a cruise line on which it emerges many women have been trafficked and sexually abused. They use a phrase to describe the incidents "No Real Person Involved (NRPI), as they didn't harm or impact anyone rich or famous.

I think that is very accurate in terms of how the super rich view the rest of us. I don't think Andrew gave even two seconds thought to what those girls were doing there, or any aspect of their lives, because they are not real people to him. Similarly I doubt he realised all the gardeners, cooks etc were in fact potential witnesses to criminality, as again he barely noticed their existence.

@TheFaerieQueene

Why can’t some people realise that this isn’t about the victims age, but the fact she was trafficked for sex, which makes it rape. The fact she was 17 is horrific but the legal issue is - she could not give consent because of her situation, so those who had sex with her raped her.

Exactly

Thats why people are saying andrew is a rapist

And what where just said

Spot on

...but what about Meghan and her infamous plot to bring down the royal family by not putting up and shutting up 🤔

According to the several hundred Meghan threads on mumsnet isn't 'banging on' about the impact of sustained bullying on your mental health much more disrespectful to the Queen and worse for the firm?

I think it’s unlikely he actually realised the girl was trafficked. That’s not a concept that many people deal with or would even consider in their everyday lives. He probably just thought she was traveling with his scummy friends. I still think he’s disgusting but I’m just not sure he realised the legal implications of his actions

Best case scenario he thought Epstein had a number of 16/17/18 year old girls who travelled globally with him to provide massage services. Best case scenario. Think about that - does that sound like a scummy man, or a predator? PA has daughters. Of course he knew girls of that age should not be travelling around the world with a multi millionaire and no parents to give massage services to men. Come on.

Watch the interview with Emily Maitlis. It's basically a 'how to make your guilt clear by numbers'.

Again, continuing with the best case scenario, let's look at his actions when Epstein became a convicted child sex offender.

What kind of a man do you think chooses to fly to the US to tell a convicted child sex offender their friendship is over, rather than doing it on phone or email or through lawyers, stays at his home during that trip because it was a "convenient place to stay" and explains all this away by saying he is "too honourable" and refuses to say he regrets the friendship.

Seriously. All his words. Can you really not see how morally bankrupt that is to the point that it makes it clear PA didnt care about the legal implications because he felt untouchable.

Anyone with a brain cell would realise that as a public figure, meeting with and staying at the home of, a convicted child sex offender has huge ramifications, including legal ones - because it means if accusations are levelled at you, it is easy for prosecutors to evidence how you were potentially complicit. By not distancing yourself from a convicted child sex offender. Which should be quite a simple thing to do and not involve a fucking walk and sleepover.

I’m going completely against the grain.
Unless he’s accused of underage sex then leave him be. He was known as Randy Andy back then and it was open knowledge what he was like. Different times back then

Totally agree, he's the big name against whom the accusers can make the most profitable accusations. What evidence has ever been produced, other than unsubstantiated accusations? He is an obnoxious person with a huge sense of entitlement but in this instance he is being used because of his name and profile.
If the Americans refuse to deal with a killer-driver then they have no right to demand anything here.

If it was a bloke from a council estate whose flat was known for years locally as paedophile island who drove around in a car nicknamed the Lolita express what would you think of the friends who came to stay for holidays with him?

In the case of Rochdale et al it took years and a change in the attitude forced on the authorities regarding community relationships before a small number of abusers were brought to court.

mrsBtheparker Sat 04-Jul-20 11:09:59
If it was a bloke from a council estate whose flat was known for years locally as paedophile island who drove around in a car nicknamed the Lolita express what would you think of the friends who came to stay for holidays with him?
..
Thing is with Epstein, he kept the illegal stuff away from many 'friends'; sure they knew he had raunchy parties which are and always have been extremely common but they wouldn't have known anything about trafficking or coercion. He was a clever bugger!

When he did (short) time for sex with an underage girl it was because he took a plea and explained it away afterwards as having made a mistake.

People like Epstein are very persuasive and plausible.

mrsBtheparker Sat 04-Jul-20 11:02:57
I’m going completely against the grain.
Unless he’s accused of underage sex then leave him be. He was known as Randy Andy back then and it was open knowledge what he was like. Different times back then
....
He was young and single, lots of young single chaps have many girlfriends. A lot of attractive, eligible girls have plenty of boyfriends!

I agree with you, people want to make more of Prince Andrew's involvement than there was. Let's wait and see.

@ slangofoillmochara if you’re going to rant then you might want to defer from using ableist language....

So, extradition to face the law for crimes should now be assessed and based on a zero sum dance. No moral failure there. The people who are being cheated are the victims. That attitude is not socking it to their judicial system. In fact, that would just be joining the behaviour of those who closed ranks on Epstein's victims in Florida and elsewhere.

@DomDoesWotHeWants

I agree he's an odious creep. But the American lawyers are worse. They are out for money not justice. And prepared to lie for attention.

If, and it is if, he had sex with the girl - and I'm not convinced he did - she was over the age of consent.

At that time women were falling over themselves to have him. He had no need to coerce or have a friend fix him up with a girl.

So many lies told by so many people I doubt the truth will ever be known.

@DomDoesWotHeWants - unfortunate username for someone who is spectacularly missing the point. Rape is about power not sexual desire. Likewise sexual abuse of minors does not happen because the perpetrator can’t get a woman. Please educate yourself on such matters before posting unhelpful comments that are victim blaming and offensive.