WIBU to say no to bailing BIL out?

[YeahWhatevver]

Really struggling to work out what to do.

DH and BIL are relatively close. BIL has never been great with money, definitely lives for the moment. Has in the past had quite a bit of credit card debt and has previously struggled with managing his money. He has (had) a decent job BIL and SIL both work, though SIL is 2 days a week. They have 2 kids.

DH and BIL inherited just under 90k each about 2.5 years ago from their Mother's estate. Nothing was ever discussed about what they were planning to do with it, we put a lot of it into the mortgage or set it aside to put into the mortgage when our fixed term ends (want to a out early repayment fees) and have put some aside for our kids (first cars/bit ot money for college)

Looks like BIL spent most of his - none of our business it's his to use as he wants.

BIL is looking like he'll imminently lose his job. And called up DH asking of he has any of mum's inheritance left as he's in a bit of a spot a figure of £25k seems to have been banded about. Annoyingly DH said yes, we've got quite a bit in savings, so BIL knows we could if we wanted to

DH has previously "loaned" BIL money for it to never be returned fully.

Our family and BIL's family have similar incomes. So it's not like DH has got lucky while BIL has been dealt a bad hand in life.
BIL has a lot bigger house, 2 nice cars lots of personal finance

I can tell DH is protective of his brother and wants to help but I really want to just say no. We've made plans around this money, made sacrifices to be in the financial position we are now and I don't see why we should squander those plans to bail out someone who has failed to take responsibility for themselves.

Problem is, I can see this creating a huge rift.

WIBU to speak to BIL and say no?

If your BiL is going under, it may as well be for the larger amount of money. You and your DH can't save somebody in these circumstances, you can only lose money that might actually be more useful later, if it came to helping them find a deposit for housing etc. (should they lose their home).

Your BiL needs to approach Step Change or any of the other excellent organisations. He and his family need to approach their creditors and negotiate matters now rather than having to do it under more exigent circumstances.

I think your wife and your children should come before anyone else and since you can't see tangible they have spent the money on it doesn't look like they were sensible. Unless they've got it all in savings and just don't want to spend it.

This won't end well.

YANBU

I would be cross if my DH offered to lend your BIL money but from the sound of it he hasn't promised him any but his brother put him on the spot by asking if he had any left.

Your BIL sounds as if he has always spent and never put anything aside for the future or a rainy day. People like that normally have to hit rock bottom before they change so it is important your DH knows if you lend him any money you are unlikely to get it back. As a first step point the BIL to the MSE website to the Debt free wannabe section for advice. I would not lend him money. He has to learn to live within his income so at least one of the cars should go and probably their lifestyle will need to change.

There are several things your DH can say to his brother to avoid lending him the money.

He can say you are not happy about joint family being lent out as it is earmarked for yours and your children's future and you are worried you may not get it back.

You can say it is in a fixed term savings account and is not easily accessible.

You can say if he already is in debt you don't think it would help him to go further in debt by taking a loan from you. Ask him why he has none of the £90k left from his mum and point out it is not your responsibility to fix his financial mistake of having no emergency savings and too much debt. Point him to a free debt charity like step change.

Say you think it is best not to lend money to family or friends as it usually ends badly both from your finances point of view (I doubt the BIL could afford to repay unless he gets a job fast and changes his spending attitude) and from a relationship point of view in that it makes things awkward. If your BIL borrowed money from you and then spent money on a holiday you presumably would be miffed.

Or just ignore his request and say nothing. If he asks again just say the money is your emergency fund so you don't want to touch it,

If he can't afford the house he needs to sell it and move to a rental. Otherwise you're just pouring money into a bucket with a hole in the bottom.

When you're that deep in the pit for money only big structural changes will make any positive difference.

Why didn’t he put £25k away for a rainy day/emergencies? That’s what a responsible adult does when they receive such a large chunk of inheritance, and is exactly what you and your DH have done.

I’d be telling BIL to sell his cars and downsize. Why should your DH feel bad about that? Unless BIL has to suffer the consequences of his poor financial planning, he won’t ever learn to be sensible with money. Easy come, easy go is his motto.

Your DH should be focussing on his own family security.

Ask DH, if the shoe was on the other foot, would BIL agree to lend him £25k?

OP, please show your DH this thread so that he understands that YANBU.

No point in lending it to him even with a contract as you can't get blood out of a stone. You'll never see a penny as he'll owe older creditors first. This would be a dealbreaker for me and I'd make sure your h knows this in no uncertain terms. He wants to continue living beyond his means. Your h is putting him and that before his own family. NFW.

No point in lending it to him even with a contract as you can't get blood out of a stone. You'll never see a penny as he'll owe older creditors first

Exactly. Nor is there much point in DH saying the money's "tied up" since he's already told him it's in savings and it's obvious he'd have known about that

Pussyfooting's all very well for the sake of tact but doesn't often work with CFs since it's not tact they want but cold hard cash. Much better surely to lay the position out kindly but firmly so there's no misunderstanding

Finance on a kitchen when he inherited 90 grand a couple of years ago??

Well you know you wouldn't see any money that you gave him again!

There must be other solutions without resulting to handouts.

Should have told him that you'd also pissed your money away!

Lock the money up. Or tell your BIL that its locked up in an investment account which you cant access for 5 years without paying large penalties.

You'll have to navigate your husband, but its completely fair to stand your ground.

If you cannot get your husband to see sense then take a different path; whatever your husband takes for his sole use (his choice what to do with if; give to his brother or keep) then you also get to take the same amount for your sole use. It wont be available for family expenses, or your children's future. It will be yours, for whatever you might want for yourself.

If he gets to take money then you get to as well.

OP,

That arbitrary sum will be swallowed up in no time and will only prevent your brother from having to make the adjustments to the way his family lives for a couple of months.

You will never see that money again.
Am I clear?

Because there is likely to be a very rocky road ahead for the next couple of years.

There is absolutely NO way I would be handing money over to someone who is useless with money, potentially money that you and your family may use.

There is no way, having been careful with money to protect my future that I would hand over a huge amount like this to be pissed away by your BIL.

If it means that you are the big bad person, I would do it.

But no way would I hand over 25,000 pounds to someone like your BIL.

Because you will never see it again.
It is your families nest egg.
Your children may need it.

His family is NOT more important than yours.

He has chosen to live the high life.
His choices.

He is an adult.
He needs to sort it out.

I would feel absolutely no obligation to help someone who has lived well with no thought for protecting themselves.

He is a sibling.

Your husband is not a parent to his brother.

OP, you will need to be strong, firm and unyielding in how you articulate this to your husband.

In a situation like this if you both don't agree, it doesn't happen.

Do not be emotionally blackmailed by either your husband or your BIL.

Your BIL is just looking for a way out to delay making the inevitable tough choices he is going to have to make...

Not on your buck.

You know what will really cause a rift? Your DH handing over money only to see that pissed up against the wall too and the cars and posh house eventually still going to the wall and, on top of that, your DH resenting to the core that his brother would not only piss his own money away but also shit all over the way his brother sacrificed HIS OWN KIDS future pot of help for him.

That single post should surely make your DH see sense.

Having said that, in your shoes I wouldn't necessarily rule out helping the BIL if I could do so in a way that guaranteed I got the money back. What does he want the money for? If it's to cover the mortgage, and they're at risk of losing their home, for example, I would try to help but only if I had a formal loan and repayment plan

I'd want to know the full extent of all debt, including the mortgage, and the extent of any mortgage arrears.

Imagine if they've got very little equity in the house, he used up all the money the OP lends, still keeps racking up debt and ends up in bankruptcy? They'd have no hope of getting it back then.

I'm also very concerned that they've been in dire straits before and haven't learned a lesson from it, still have cars on PCP, a big mortgage AND finance on a kitchen.

The fact that they had to take out finance for the kitchen, as opposed to tacking the cost on to the mortgage, tells me that there' may not be a lot of equity in the property. If the combined effects of Covid and Brexit lead to a house price crash, they'll be right up shit creek. The 25k they're asking for may just be postponing the inevitable.

YANBU at all OP.

Please don't lend your BIL 25K, you know you will never see a penny of it back. If you bail people like these out constantly, they will never ever learn.

Your DH shouldn't feel bad, your BIL's poor financial planning is not your family's problem. Your BIL needs a grip on reality, he needs to downsize, get a car he can actually afford, and stop living beyond his means. He literally had 90K and wasted it on god knows what in just two years, please don't fall for the guilt tripping and emotional blackmail which will probably come your way.

I have seen many people advise doing it legally with a written agreement. I would point out this is not worth the paper it is written on unless you are willing to take BIL to court for non payment. He is a non payer historically and bad with money. He needs to remedy that rather than sponge off his DB

Formal repayment plans are useless when the person has older creditors (for example, the house is repossessed, the bank sells but the sale price is not enough to cover the balance of the mortgage and interest so guess what, the BIL and SIL are still liable for that debt first) or goes bankrupt.

It's a non-starter.

@Cornishclio

I have seen many people advise doing it legally with a written agreement. I would point out this is not worth the paper it is written on unless you are willing to take BIL to court for non payment. He is a non payer historically and bad with money. He needs to remedy that rather than sponge off his DB

And he has it to pay because even taking someone to court doesn't result in being paid.

Thing is, £25k won’t even go that far on all that debt. So you could give him that and he’ll still have to sell up and you’ll never get it back, you’ll just have paid a lot to delay the inevitable. Sorry if that sounds callous, but having got a £25k windfall and no saved any nor taken out any insurance makes me feel less charitable!

Oh just remembered a friend years ago having something a bit similar.

She immediately put her money into an account where it wasn't available to her for 12 months so that she was able to say TRUTHFULLY that she didn't have access to funds...in this case 5,000 .....but still a lot to her.

Perhaps you could do this, if it helped soften it...

OP you have done the right thing - no way would I lend this money. We have experience of this in our family and trust me you will never see this money again. Why should you have to make sacrifices so they can continue living their flashy lifestyle! By giving it to him will also be enabling it, he will never learn. Be interesting to know if his wife knows about the request for money? What’s your relationship like with your SIL?

How long has he been with his company for? If it’s over 2 years he will be entitled to redundancy pay. Some companies only pay statutory but others do offer enhanced also. If he has a long length of service and they offer enhanced pay, sometimes people can end up with a substantial amount - there is also no tax and NI implications for amounts up to 30k

If not he better start thinking about selling some of his prized possessions..!!

If BIL is going to struggle to get another job then the cars need to go. The loan companies need to be contacted and different repayment plans made etc. You throwing £25k at them will not help long term. They need a proper financial plan. And as other have said if they are in this much debt after a large inheritance they are clearly living beyond their means. Like why do they have a loan for the kitchen when they received an inheritance.

Jesus, no, fucking NO. Do not lend him any money.

He is a selfish spoiled twat who shows off with his fancy expensive stuff he can't afford. He has got himself into this shit. Don't feel guilty about it, and don't let your DH. He will have to sell up. The house, the cars etc, and live within his means.

You and DH have been sensible and are using your money to plan your financial future. You have the opportunity to use it to help your children with university or a deposit on a house, or perhaps an investment if anyone wanted to start a business. But not for your BIL to spunk it away.

No one would be taking money from my kids under these circumstances.

My uncle was like your bil. My grandparents enabled him for decades, they thought they were helping but they just allowed him to never face his responsibilities. They died and he now asks other family members for 'loans'.

I have seen many people advise doing it legally with a written agreement. I would point out this is not worth the paper it is written on unless you are willing to take BIL to court for non payment

Totally agree. People act as if having something in writing is guaranteed and fool proof. It isnt. I know someone who took another person to court for this reason and they ended up settling via mediation (and letting half the money go) because taking them to court for the actual full amount would have cost them thousands in legal fees. Not to mention, if you lose you end up paying all their legal costs too. PLUS, if he feels bad now, how bad is he going to feel taking his own brother through a gruelling legal process? I dont think people realise just how expensive it really is to take someone to court, both financially and emotionally.

Perhaps suggest that SIL works full-time instead of two days a week to increase their family finances. I certainly wouldn’t be lending them any money. If you do I guarantee you won’t get it back.