My neighbour has clients coming in and out all day

[notahinchersorry]

I've not said anything at all to her she's been working from the start of lockdown, clients in and out all day. She's a hairdresser yesterday I was popping out to the shops two clients turn up and one has the kid with them. She's putting all her work up on her social media I just think it's shocking.

Aibu to think this is just taking the piss?

I would say to mind your business unless you are paying her bills

The self-employed people who didn’t get support were those who hadn’t yet submitted a tax return or those who were not declaring their earnin

It's far far more than that. It's estimated that between 1 and 3 million of the 5 million self employed people aren't eligible and they're not all new businesses or dodging their taxes.

My DP has been freelance in the events industry for ten years and has the tax returns to prove his fully declared income. He's also done his tax return for 2019/20. But because he was on PAYE for part of the qualifying years he doesn't get a penny as more than half your income has to be from SE. His was 46%. However, he's expected to earn nothing from this industry for the rest of this year and maybe into next year. There are lots of people like him in the music and theatre industry.

Many people transition into SE alongside a PAYE job over a few years and their income split this year could be very different to 1-3 years ago, in the qualifying years.

People earning over £50k get nothing at all. This will include many families with one self employed earner earning just over this amount working long hours to support a family with a SAHP. If they live in an expensive area, they're not likely to have had lots of spare income to build up savings that the government claims they should use to live on.

These people will be paying taxes to pay for this whole mess, despite having received none of the support that others have.

The self-employed people who didn’t get support were those who hadn’t yet submitted a tax return or those who were not declaring their earnings.

Where is your proof for this?

The self-employed people who didn’t get support were those who hadn’t yet submitted a tax return or those who were not declaring their earnings. I think you've been reading some very biased publications. That is so wrong it's a flat out lie!

And those of us who did get support won't be getting a good deal anyway... anyone have a real clue about our next round of SEISS? It is far, far less than any part of the extended furlough scheme. I will be absolutely screwed and I have no control over when/if my clients ever come back! Many have already said they won't!

And for some odd reason the givernment are taking this as an oportunity to change the tax laws to make it even more difficult to make a decent living if you are a Sole Trader... all in the name of being fair, obviously! Becasue some of you believe shite like that

I listened to the chancellor’s announcement and it was widely reported afterwards.

The proportion of self-employed people making taxable profits of more than £50k (which is different from having a turnover of £50k) was tiny. The scheme helped most of the self-employed people who were truly self-employed and who had been submitting tax returns.

The scheme excluded people who were self-employed on the side of being employed, as @BarbaraofSeville mentions above, but that was for obvious reasons. Both the furlough scheme and the scheme to help self-employed people were there to provide a lifeline, not to provide full financial compensation for all sources of revenue.

Didn't the self employed have to wait 2 months on assistant in the UK?
My hairdresser has been doing home visits since April I haven't booked in.

*assistance

for some odd reason the givernment are taking this as an oportunity to change the tax laws to make it even more difficult to make a decent living if you are a Sole Trader... all in the name of being fair, obviously! Becasue some of you believe shite like that

Do you mean increasing the amount of NI that sole traders can pay, so that classes 2 and 4 move closer to the amounts employed people would pay under class 1?

If so, why do you think it is unfair that everybody should pay NI at similar rates?

I haven’t been reading ‘biased publications’, by the way. I’m capable of listening, understanding and making my own mind up. I get that some self-employed people feel hard done by, but that doesn’t mean that anybody who doesn’t agree with them is stupid or can’t think for themselves.

@Tink2007

I don’t understand how people know so much about the comings and goings of their neighbours. I’m friendly with my neighbour but god I couldn’t tell you what she does day in day out. Nor do I sit curtain twitching and I’ve been shielding since March.

It's not hard to understand that people are different is it? How do you not know that?

At any time when I'm in the front of my house I can see everything the neighbours are doing, if one of them was running a business having people come to the house all the neighbours would be able to see. My hairdresser is also a friend, I know lots about her life, if she lived next door I'd be in exactly the same situation as the OP although I know she hasn't been working.

If so, why do you think it is unfair that everybody should pay NI at similar rates? Erm.... things like the other inequalities in the self employed system. Like SSP etc. But if you don't want to hear that, that's fine! Many do prefer to think of selfemployed people as being on the fiddle.

Both the furlough scheme and the scheme to help self-employed people were there to provide a lifeline, not to provide full financial compensation for all sources of revenue. No shit Sherlock! However, the inequality in support is telling.

Apparently we get less financial support because we can choose for ourelves whether or not we go back to work! Well, that simply is not true for very many of us. And that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, let alone the Treasury!

Well, so much for asking to take your thread down.

Look - the government doesn't give a shit that people have lost their jobs and are struggling.
They offered you 80% of your wage - but only if you didn't fall into the loopholes......whilst they gave themselves £10k to work from home!!!!!!!
They've re-opened the industry that benefits their fatcat mates who don't pay their taxes in this country.....but it's "fuck you" to ordinary Joe Bloggs who lives on the breadline anyway

If you're homeless and have been relying on the free hot dinners and caring human contact provided in the communities - well it's an even bigger "fuck you" to them and the volunteers who were providing the service.

Does ANYBODY think about that before spying, judging and 'reporting' on others?

The self-employed people who didn’t get support were those who hadn’t yet submitted a tax return or those who were not declaring their earnings.

You couldn't be more wrong. There are lots of reasons why s/e weren't eligible for the grants, the two most common being:-

1. Starting the business after 6/4/19;

and

1. Starting the business during the 18/19 tax year, and therefore having some months employed prior to starting and then some months self employed. If the employed income was more than the s/e profits, they'd not be eligible.

The latter rule (i.e. s/e profits must be more than half total income) also caught people who were running employment side by side with self employment but then went fully self employed during 19/20, or were self employed along an occupational pension (early retirement) where the pension was more than s/e profits for 18/19 tax year.

I don’t understand how people know so much about the comings and goings of their neighbours. I’m friendly with my neighbour but god I couldn’t tell you what she does day in day out. Nor do I sit curtain twitching and I’ve been shielding since March.

Some people have verbal diarrhea and tell you everything about their lives whether you're interested or not.

My next door neighbours on each side are polar opposites. To the left, I know literally everything about her life, names of her friends/relatives, where they all work, where they all go on holiday, where they live, what they do, etc etc. I cringe when I go into the garden and she's in hers as I know it's going to be a half hour one sided conversation telling me all about what her and hers are doing.

To the right, I know her name and the name of her son who lives with her - I vaguely know where she works, I havn't a clue about her daughter/grand-daughter - don't even know their names, havn't a clue what jobs either have, don't know where daughter lives. When we find ourselves in the gardens together, we have a brief 2 or 3 minute chat about the whether, what flowers are out, and then drift away again.

If people don't want others to know their business, they need to learn to shut up and stop broadcasting. Unfortunately, far too many people love the sound of their own voices and tell people far too much about themselves.

If so, why do you think it is unfair that everybody should pay NI at similar rates?

It wouldn't be unfair IF they got the same benefits. But S/e benefits are inferior to employment benefits in several ways, so whilst we have inequality of benefits, then it makes sense for their to be inequality of contributions to match.

The proportion of self-employed people making taxable profits of more than £50k (which is different from having a turnover of £50k) was tiny.

Why the £50k limit for s/e but no limit for furloughed employees?

Where's the parity/fairness in that?

Can’t hairdressers reopen tomo any way?

Exactly. It's the inequality between PAYE and SE that people are objecting to.

PAYE capped so everyone gets something vs higher SE earners getting nothing.

PAYE running until end of October, two months longer than SE.

Most loopholes for PAYE workers closed as they were identified (people who have moved jobs, those on parental leave during qualifying period) but those who have fallen through the cracks while SE told no.

And probably more. As for the 'well SE people could work if they choose to' many couldn't. No-one is paying anyone to build festival stages or run the lighting in a theatre any time soon, for example.

Many people are SE not by choice, but because big business don't want to employ people on PAYE contracts, where they'd be entitled to paid holidays, sick pay, parental leave, redundancy pay etc etc. So they're faced with the uncertainty of jumping from contract to contract, often for no more money than they'd receive as an employee and sometimes very little pay at all - because some industries are desirable, a lot of roles that should be paid are covered by interns and volunteers.

Ffs! Just report, not only is she probably a hot hot bed of people who are not going to admit to her as a contact if they get covid but also she is committing benefit fraud.
I am also all for reporting employers for fraud over furlough as well.
The Leicester outbreaks are being linked to companies which continued to work when non essential and claiming furlough fraudulently then paying the staff under minimum wage and making them come into work otherwise they wouldn't pay them.

Apparently we get less financial support because we can choose for ourelves whether or not we go back to work!

Yes, I've heard that too! Another great fat lie. Many self employed tradesmen can't go back to work because their suppliers remain closed. Only yesterday I was talking to a domestic window blind fitter - he's got over 25 jobs waiting, but the blinds factory hasn't re-opened yet so he can't get supplies. He's tried alternative blind factories, but they're not taking on new accounts as they're working on reduced capacity due to social distancing and are only just managing to provide suppliers to their existing/long standing customers.

Far too many people who aren't self employed havn't the faintest idea of the realities of being in business.

(And no, before any smart arse says it, the blind fitter can't just go to Wickes or Homebase to buy blinds - customers choose a professional blinds fitter to their own reasons - they'd go to Wickes or Homebase themselves if there were suitable blinds available off the shelf!!).

Oh and also you say it's none of your business so you will not report her... will you be thinking the same if your income was affected if your area suffers a spike and has a local lockdown?

I’ll address some of the questions asked upthread:

If so, why do you think it is unfair that everybody should pay NI at similar rates?

Erm.... things like the other inequalities in the self employed system. Like SSP etc. But if you don't want to hear that, that's fine! Many do prefer to think of selfemployed people as being on the fiddle.

When did I say that self-employed people were “on the fiddle”? You clearly feel hard done by, but please don’t project.

Do you really believe that everyone who is employed has a generous sick pay scheme? Think again. Many employers only offer SSP and basic support.

Why do you think that somebody working for Sports Direct, say, on minimum wage and a zero hours contract and minimal benefits (see above) should pay more NI than a self-employed person?

Incidentally, I understand the difference in the tax and NI treatments of a self-employed sole trader, a self-employed person operating through a limited company and an employee. I understand it because I’m a finance professional.

Both the furlough scheme and the scheme to help self-employed people were there to provide a lifeline, not to provide full financial compensation for all sources of revenue.

No shit Sherlock! However, the inequality in support is telling.

And your point is? There’s no need to be aggressive. Projecting again, I suppose.

Would you feel better if furloughed employed people received less support? The rationale for furloughing all employees irrespective of salary (but only up to a monthly limit) was explained at the time. When a corporate entity goes out of business, that’s it. Those jobs are lost until somebody comes along with the will and the funds to incorporate another, which many investors would be unlikely to do. The furlough scheme saved jobs. Whereas for a self-employed person, a sole trader, it’s usually easier to start up again because there is usually less infrastructure.

Well considering she can operate legally as a mobile hairdresser from tomorrow it's all a bit irrelevant now isn't it? I think you would have had different responses had you posted a few weeks back.

They offered you 80% of your wage - but only if you didn't fall into the loopholes......whilst they gave themselves £10k to work from home!!!!!!!

Not this again. MPs could claim up to £10k, supported by receipts, for office equipment so that they and their constituency staff could work from home. It wasn’t a £10k windfall. This myth has been debunked so many times and yet people continue to cling to it. It’s quite fascinating.

Here’s some dialogue from The Thick of It, which demonstrates this rather well.

Malcolm Tucker: Is that your chair?

Nicola Murray : Oh god, yeah. It's cool, isn't it? It's got lumbar support.

Malcolm Tucker : Bin it. People don't like their politicians to be comfortable. They don't like you having expences, they don't like you being paid, they rather you lived in a fucking cave.

Nicola Murray : Okay, fine. So what should I be sitting on? Should I just get an upturned KFC bucket?

Why the £50k limit for s/e but no limit for furloughed employees?

Where's the parity/fairness in that?

Because if your taxable profits are > £50k, your turnover is likely to be very healthy and you’re expected to have planned financially for a downturn in your business. That’s the risks and rewards of enterprise. Do you think that self-employed people extracting hundreds of thousands of pounds a year from their businesses should have been given support? Where would you have drawn the line? The £50k limit excluded only a small percentage of people. I’d prefer for that money to have been spent on people who really needed it.

Re the contrast with the furlough scheme for employed people: as I explain above, once a business employing people fails, that’s it. The jobs are gone and can’t easily be replaced. There are massive barriers to setting up a similar enterprise, not least investors being put off by the risk of it all falling apart the next time this happens.

People who are employed don’t fully share in the risks and rewards of the business employing them. The shareholders, or partners, or business owners, do. That is why employees are different to self-employed people.