to hate what Brexiters have done

[mrsmootoo]

I know this has been done before, but knowing that we are now likely on course for a No Deal Brexit in the midst of a pandemic I am so angry and upset about what Brexiters voted for. I'll forgive any who were conned and now think better of it, but I cannot get over the loss of Freedom of Movement to live and work in the EU - not so much for me, but for my children - and the way the UK is sliding in international standing economically and in attracting doctors, nurses, scientists etc. (I know from before that Leavers don't care what I think, but just had to post).

Numerous multinationals that claimed they would leave the UK have since spent money and committed to staying

I work in H&S and visit all kinds of businesses for work. I meet loads of manufacturers and exporters, I've yet to meet one who things Brexit will be good for their business, I'm sure some must be out there, I've just never met one. Actually, I remember just after the referendum, I had a meeting somewhere, while I was waiting in reception, I was chatting to the receptionist. She was very happy about Leave and said after Brexit they'd be able to sell there products all over the world instead of only in the EU. I pointed out this huge picture on the wall behind her of the MD delivering this massive great turbine thing to a company in China. She looked at it and said "oh, yeah " and giggled. She seemed to have been under the impression the company wasn't allowed to sell outside the EU despite sitting under a photo of them delivering products to China.

I know a good few companies that have moved, mostly to the Netherlands it seems. One company I know, they do sales, warehousing and distribution across the EU. There product is manufactured in Mexico, imported to the UK and then 92% distributed across Europe. The MD told me the staff is split about 50/50 offices and warehousing. Almost all the office staff were British, the warehouse staff were half British half EU. He told me he used to listen to staff in the canteen and it seemed about half voted Leave, half Remain, much like the rest of the country. The boss bloke also happened to be an EU citizen. His company was also moving to the Netherlands (delayed because of covid) . Ironically, the EU staff can come with him, the British staff will all lose their jobs.

I wonder what the leave voters amongst them think? I bet they don't regret their vote and would still vote leave, even though it'll cost them and their remain voting colleagues their jobs.

I meet loads of manufacturers and exporters, I've yet to meet one who things Brexit will be good for their business

JCB?
KenDodd I guess you don’t like Lord Bamford as he’s rich, votes Tory and supports leave, but JCB is a big manufacturer and exporter.

If it's nothing to do with message, it's because they were perceived as a political project which did nothing for people, again ask why?

The EU is a success. At its core is a profound desire by those who had suffered two catastrophic wars on their own lands (and British politicians who had fought and seen the horrors of war first hand) not to have another land war in Europe.

Compared with the countries occupied by the Nazis during WW2 and bombed flat during both WWs England got off lightly.

England with it's "We won the War", We're better that you", "We won the World Cup in 1966 as well!" endless Jingoist attitude was always going to be a hard sell.

Almost all the office staff were British, the warehouse staff were half British half EU. His company was also moving to the Netherlands (delayed because of covid).Ironically, the EU staff can come with him, the British staff will all lose their jobs.

One growth area in the UK (and elsewhere) is likely to be warehousing and distribution - even the EU staff will be tempted to stay in the UK if they have families and settled lives here;

www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/09/uk-warehouse-group-segro-outlines-1bn-to-tap-online-shopping-boom

KenDodd
There of course also Lyra Kckee, killed by the new IRA

How do you explain the timeline here in 2014, 2015, early 2016?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-10866072

One difference I think between me and leave voters is that actually I quite like international law.

That's no difference at all. Leave voters also like international law.

For other countries, naturally.

Much as the UK government liked social distancing laws. For other people, naturally. Not themselves.

There was no emergency budget because Cameron, despite saying that he would stay to implement the result, immediately did a runner. Osborne went too. Who knows what Osborne would have done if Cameron had kept his word?

To be fair, Osborne was booted out by May wasn't he ?

We haven't yet seen any economic or social benefits that I can see. Some of the lack of economic benefit is to do with Covid- but that excuse will only last so long.
We're still in the transition period and therefore still bound by all of the rules. The benefits are something that you see in the long term as rules, taxes and tariffs are simplified or abolished outright.

I don’t know why they think the UK govt will want to uphold employment rights & standards that cost businesses money if they don’t have to. @TornadoOfSouls
Given that Britain's rights and standards far exceed those required by European legislation, don't you think that if the Conservatives really did intend to return the country to a Dickensian dystopia that they'd have started by now?

But if Cameron hadn't done a runner, May wouldn't have been able to boot him out.

KenDodd
This is not just a few isolated cases, an increase in suicide has been associated with Brexit.

I think you have misunderstood the study in your link - the suicides appear to have taken place prior to the Brexit vote (2014--2016);

"Objectives.To test the hypothesis that deaths of despair, a marker of social suffering, were associated with greater support for Brexit in the United Kingdom's 2016 European Union referendum. Methods.We used cross-local authority regression models of Brexit vote shares on changes in suicide and drug-related death rates before (2005-2007) and after the recession (2014-2016), adjusting for sociodemographic factors" ...
"Conclusions. Worsening mortality correlated with Brexit votes. These phenomena appear to share similar antecedents. A rise in such deaths may point to deeper social problems that could have political consequences."

"Conclusions. Worsening mortality correlated with Brexit votes.

How does that not imply an increase in suicide associated with Brexit?

Peregrina
How does that not imply an increase in suicide associated with Brexit?

Associated with [areas with higher rates of suicide prior to the vote/areas 'left-behind' more likely to have voted for Brexit) but not the cause of higher rates of suicide as per KenDodd's post;

"I can name a few people who have died as a direct result of Brexit.This is not just a few isolated cases, an increase in suicide has been associated with Brexit."

How can the Brexit vote be the direct cause of suicides in 2014 and 2015?

TheSandman Peace in Europe is down to NATO, which predates the ECSC by two years. The 'EU' as is, didn't exist until the Lisbon Treaty, nascent stirrings in the Maastricht treaty.

Article Five of the Washington Treaty, with the guarantee of US intervention, has kept the peace for 70 years.

There's a really interesting book called "How To Lose A Referendum : The Definitive Story of Why The UK Voted for Brexit" by Jason Farrell and Paul Goldsmith . It's really worth a read and gives much insight into why the vote went the way it did.

@GirlsBlouse17

There's a really interesting book called "How To Lose A Referendum : The Definitive Story of Why The UK Voted for Brexit" by Jason Farrell and Paul Goldsmith . It's really worth a read and gives much insight into why the vote went the way it did.

They must have used a really big font to get the word "lies" across a whole book.

Did they use different languages ?

Mensonges

Bugies

and obviously Вранье

I guess that'd work.

I am not sure how NATO has kept the peace between France and Germany. I don't think the USSR was planning to mount an aggressive attack on either of them.

I can see that if West Germany had not been created when it was, a weak war torn Germany might have been vulnerable.

As Allies, and signatories to the Washington Treaty, an attack on one is an attack on all. Therefore, they couldn't attack one another, as they are bound by the Treaty. How do you think Greece and Turkey manage to co-exist within the Alliance whilst considering themselves to be in a state of war with each other?

There are thousands of tariffs on everyday items like food and clothing @DdraigGoch gave one example of 16% on oranges. That's paid by consumers, tariffs are regressive and hit people on lower incomes more. Coffee is another example. There are tariffs of 11.5% on processed coffee which means that most of it is imported to the EU then processed. It's the processing that makes the most profit so European consumers pay extra for their coffee which makes large corporations richer, poor farmers receive less money for their work. We then send aid to many of those countries.

The biggest gains will come from reducing opportunity costs. The EU stifles innovation. Rather than work out why the US produce so many world leading technology companies and try to replicate the conditions it would rather try rig the market against successful companies and make consumers pay more. That's the reason they want a "level playing field" in the trade talks, they know they're inefficient and would rather keep the UK down at their level than raise their game.

You are talking about external attacks by the sound of it. What would NATO actually have done if France had declared war on Germany? Assuming that this is one of the times when France was in NATO - I believe they have been in and out and back in again.

Greece and Turkey did go to war over Cyprus in the 1970s despite both being NATO members: a still unresolved matter I believe. Although I see that Cyprus isn't a NATO member.

The EU stifles innovation. Rather than work out why the US produce so many world leading technology companies and try to replicate the conditions it would rather try rig the market against successful companies and make consumers pay more. That's the reason they want a "level playing field" in the trade talks, they know they're inefficient and would rather keep the UK down at their level than raise their game

mmmmmmmm Boeing vs Airbus? who made the death plane? Roche Bayer, Siemens, GSK, Astra Zeneka, Oxford Uni, Imperial all fucking disasters compared to the might of the USA.... i don't think.

Even the eurofighter is world leading, then there is Galileo - better still than GPS.

If you really want no tariffs, then be prepared for what is left of UK manufacturing to vanish.

A quick Google of Britannia Unchained will tell you what Raab and Patel think and intend for the UK and its workforce.

If France had declared war on Germany, then Article 5 would be in play, and it would have breached Article 8. The Treaty is cleverly written, and does not specify an external threat.

Greece considers itself in a permanent state of conflict with Turkey; it's why the Greek Armed Forces are large. Reports in the papers last month of deployments by the Greeks to stop Turkish incursions into their waters, and the Greeks saying they will use force to expel the Turks. This has been going on for decades,Cyprus is just one event in all this.

InOut Is Galileo working yet? I read there was (ahem) a technical hitch (described as a clusterfuck elsewhere) last year, and that all was not going to plan.

If Trump wins in November, we can all forget NATO.

Europe has been at war with itself for centuries, there is no parallel universe, so we will never know what has kept the peace for over 75 years, we do know the ex Yugoslavia fell apart and 1000s died and neither the EU nor NATO could prevent it.

What if Yugoslavia had been in the EU? We'll never know, i feel close economic/political ties and a forum to discuss issues may have helped.

It’s awful. Worse to come and our corrupt government will blame Covid rather than Brexit.
Unforgivable corruption and propaganda all the way from the Brexit bus.