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to hate what Brexiters have done

542 replies

mrsmootoo · 01/07/2020 08:39

I know this has been done before, but knowing that we are now likely on course for a No Deal Brexit in the midst of a pandemic I am so angry and upset about what Brexiters voted for. I'll forgive any who were conned and now think better of it, but I cannot get over the loss of Freedom of Movement to live and work in the EU - not so much for me, but for my children - and the way the UK is sliding in international standing economically and in attracting doctors, nurses, scientists etc. (I know from before that Leavers don't care what I think, but just had to post).

OP posts:
Peregrina · 01/07/2020 23:47

People like Nigel Lawson had a home in France from which he used to commute to the House of Lords. I think he was having trouble with his residence there a year ago and might have to return to the UK.

What does he care about people in Sunderland or Hartlepool? He probably doesn't even know where the places are.

Peregrina · 01/07/2020 23:52

or governments had listened to their legitimate concerns about mass unchecked migration instead of branding them as ignorant bigots...well who knows...?

Theresa May had listened to concerns about immigration - she was trying (and failing) to get the numbers down to 100,000. But was it really only EU immigration which was bothering people? The people who did get kicked out were the children of the Windrush generation i.e. people with black skins. Even once EU immigration is stopped, I am perfectly happy to bet that people will still go on about "Coloureds" or "Pakis".

Cattenberg · 02/07/2020 00:09

By the way, this obsession with free movement is a peculiarly middle class one. Free movement didn't exist for a large swathe of the population who were working in very low paid roles. Unskilled workers move west (Ukrainians to Poland, Poles to the UK etc.) and ours are left with nowhere to go.

I went to the Netherlands, HTH. In the early 2000s, it had a lower rate of unemployment than the UK and needed workers. There were even plenty of jobs for unskilled workers who didn’t speak a word of Dutch. I knew of fellow Brits who went to work in Belgium, Germany, Greece and Iceland. We went where the work was and had some great experiences along the way (as well as some awful ones). We were so lucky compared to our kids.

serenada · 02/07/2020 00:16

@Cattenburg. What work did you do? Out of interest? Did any of you have the language/ contacts there?

I remember a few people who went to Sweden and Denmark but I can’t remember what jobs they had.

Cattenberg · 02/07/2020 00:21

By the way, when I moved to NL, I had three months to look for work. If I hadn’t found work in this time, I would have been expected to go back to the UK. The fact that the UK chose not to enforce the three month rule is hardly the EU’s fault.

Why didn’t the UK enforce it? Because overall, we benefited so much from EU workers that it wouldn’t have been cost-effective to seek out and deport the small minority who didn’t contribute. It wasn’t just about the amount of Income Tax these workers paid. It was about them doing the work that needed to be done.

strugglingwithdeciding · 02/07/2020 00:22

@inoutofmymind thats one persona family you know of , not how they all feel ,

Suzeyshoes · 02/07/2020 00:31

@Pisspotical

You voted brexit to 'kick the metropolitan elite in the teeth'? That's it?That's disgraceful. This makes me so angry.

You say you come yourself from a disadvantaged background but have basically thrown today's disadvantaged communities under the bus. Forget middle aged people retiring to Tuscany, I work with poorer communities and they are already dying and feeling the force of the brexit economic drain. The Tories have f*ed them over again and again. They're already eating out of food banks. Then we have COVID. And we're going to pile the economic suicide of brexit on top of that?

We are looking at a lost generation. And all of this just so people like you can 'kick the metropolitan elite in the teeth'? Come and swap with me for a bit and see the real impact of your revenge.

DdraigGoch · 02/07/2020 00:47

@saltycat

Would like to hear what the Brexit positives are from those who voted in favour.

A reasonable request I think.

Were you brainwashed or have you thought it through yourselves. It's a genuine question.

Just as remainders can list the negatives, for Brexiteers what are the positives?

The ability to trade freely rather than being subject to the Common External Tariff which is a protectionist racket designed to benefit those with the most expensive lobbyists.

Take oranges for example. Not something which can be widely grown in the UK so we do not benefit at all from the 16% tariff on their import. Remove that tariff and you open up an opportunity for farmers in the developing world to sell us oranges, saving us money and providing employment in developing countries. Both sides win in trade. There are 12,650 other examples available.

On which note, we need to start simplifying things. Complex regulation benefits big corporations because they can absorb the costs through economies of scale and watch their small competitors drown. Look at Regulation 404/93. Now you can debate whether you wish to categorise certain bananas as "sub-standard" or not [note: I haven't at any point suggested that they are 'banned'; they are not] (most people can look at a banana and decide whether they wish to buy it) but to have a 56 page directive on bananas is what Jim Hacker might call "an advanced case of galloping bureaucracy".

The Common Fisheries Policy was deliberately introduced as a raid on the vast Exclusive Economic Zones of Britain and Denmark (who were about to join). Plenty of small fishing communities lost out heavily to Spanish and French vessels, not to mention a Dutch factory ship. Fish stocks have plummeted as a result of the policy. The Total Allowable Catches were calculated based on the amount of fish caught in the area pre-CFP but the UK lost out because most of the UK's fish pre-'76 came from Icelandic waters (before the invention of EEZs) and was not counted. Therefore British fishermen may only land 30% of the catch in British waters (rather than landing 100% and then selling it on or being able to issue permission for foreign vessels if we see fit, as Norway does).

One well publicised regulation concerned a ban on inefficient vacuum cleaners. Energy efficiency does have merit of course but the time spent ensuring that new products are compliant is not efficient at all. Then there was the method for measuring efficiency. This is done with the machine empty. Vacuum cleaners are rarely empty so wouldn't it have been better to measure performance while half-full? Bagged vacuum cleaners start to lose suction at this point. The other issue is that if you ban powerful equipment (vacuums, hair dryers, toasters etc.), the end user may have to use it for longer to achieve the same result, thus consuming more energy.

The European Arrest Warrant has huge problems with human rights.

For why people voted to leave, I ask you to look back to Cameron's negotiations for an improved arrangement. He didn't exactly have a very long list. He came back having agreed even less. One of the issues discussed was Child Benefit. European law means that a child does not have to be resident in a country for their parent to claim child benefit. Why? He also wanted to restrict in-work benefits generally to those who have been resident for four years or more. The overall impression given when Cameron returned from his negotiations was that the EU were arrogantly expecting the British to dutifully come to heel. It certainly was not one of international leaders working together for the common good.

Cattenberg · 02/07/2020 00:47

@serenada, I mainly worked in a warehouse, but this was seasonal work, so I had a few other temporary agency jobs which I didn’t like so much. A lot of migrants ended up working in the bulb fields or flower-processing factories, picking fruit and veg in giant greenhouses, or cleaning hotel rooms. I also knew a few who worked in British/Irish pubs, including a lovely Aussie friend, who must have had a Working Holiday Visa.

I knew a couple of Brits in NL before I went over, but none of us spoke Dutch. I did learn some, but most Dutch people would switch to English when they heard our accents, so my spoken Dutch never got very good. I could read the newspapers, though.

I doubt it’s as easy to find work in NL now as it was then, but if it weren’t for my elderly parents, I’d still choose the EU27 over the UK.

DdraigGoch · 02/07/2020 01:09

@Cattenberg

By the way, when I moved to NL, I had three months to look for work. If I hadn’t found work in this time, I would have been expected to go back to the UK. The fact that the UK chose not to enforce the three month rule is hardly the EU’s fault.

Why didn’t the UK enforce it? Because overall, we benefited so much from EU workers that it wouldn’t have been cost-effective to seek out and deport the small minority who didn’t contribute. It wasn’t just about the amount of Income Tax these workers paid. It was about them doing the work that needed to be done.

How much would it have cost to retain the power to do so, even if you didn't use it? Truth was that Tony Blair's government wanted unlimited unskilled immigration for their own electoral advantage.You can blame him and Gordon Brown for the vote to leave. The Lisbon Treaty was the real turning point for me. Never mind the content of it, it was just the underhand way that it was agreed.

"The French and Dutch have rejected the Constitution"
"Right, let's call it a treaty then. It doesn't sound as important then"
"The Irish have rejected the Treaty"
"Make them vote again and tell them to get it right this time"
"What should the UK do?"
"Better not let them have a referendum, just get Gordon to nod it through..."

Disquieted1 · 02/07/2020 01:18

The EU had decades to show people how it was batting for them, yet it failed to do so. Maybe people should examine why this is, instead of blaming bigotry or slogans on buses.

If it's because they didn't get their message across (after 30 years!) then they need to ask why?
If it's nothing to do with message, it's because they were perceived as a political project which did nothing for people, again ask why?

Name calling achieves nothing. A period of introspection may achieve something.

Goosefoot · 02/07/2020 02:15

[quote frumpety]@LarryTheLurker

Nothing about the vital importance to all of us of the UK becoming an independent, self-governing democracy again

So we are not going to do any trade deals with any other countries in case they ask us to abide by their rules and regulations and therefore lose a teensy smidgen of so called sovereignty ? You know like the arrangement we had as a member of the EU , except we were instrumental in deciding what those rules and regulations were in that case.[/quote]
Actually there are a lot of people who do have real problems with these kinds of trade deals, and particularly with the power they typically give to corporate interests as opposed to national interests. You see this kind of resistance to what is essentially a globalist agenda on both the political left and right, it's typically the people who most benefit from globalism that tend to ignore/turn a blind eye to it's problems.

Unfortunately what has happened, again both on the left and the right, is the major parts of the major parties have totally bought into that kind of globalism and failed to do anything much to mitigate it's effects. This since the late 70's.

So after 40 years of that it shouldn't flipping surprise anyone that people vote to give a kick in the nuts to those who should have been looking out for them. Even if they are't convinced it will work, at least it's not more of the same which they know won't work.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 02/07/2020 03:23

Clav do the organisation you work for have insurance because I want to take them to court because I'm getting RSI from scrolling past the normally outdated tenuously linked tiresome C&P's you constantly post but well done if you're paid by the word you must take home an absolute packet

LellyMcKelly · 02/07/2020 05:51

Yes, it’s a fucking horrible shit show of a mess being led by a pack of thick, arrogant, malevolent clowns. No wonder we’re a laughing stock.

whereistherum · 02/07/2020 06:01

All governments have fucked us over for god knows how many years and yet we keep voting in this shit storm and nothing is going to change.

Don't be angry at the masses, be angry at the governments that led us to this point.

Also I can bet Cummings is fucking thrilled about COVID because now it will be Covid's fault and not Brexit.

ConstantlySeekingHappiness · 02/07/2020 06:52

@Alsohuman

Jesus wept. Bring the whole bloody country down to ruffle feathers. Unfortunately those feathers belong to birds too wealthy to even notice.
Here we go with this ‘country’ again.

What country? Do you actually mean the UK?

notimagain · 02/07/2020 07:15

The EU had decades to show people how it was batting for them, yet it failed to do so.

Interesting observation.

Where I am pretty much on adjacent to every major infrastructure project (e.g. a new public building, a new stretch of road) where work is ongoing there will be a large board. On that board will be a breakdown of where the money is coming from - department, Region, National..and often as not how much the EU has contributed and from which fund. That board is displayed as a consequence of national, not EU policy..I wonder why you rarely if ever saw such info displayed at UK public works sites..?

As an aside I see the effect of the Common Fisheries Policy got mentioned upthread and it being described as a "raid", no mention of the selling of the UK's agreed quotas?

Parker231 · 02/07/2020 08:02

Boris Johnson's government has admitted that it will erect Brexit border posts with Northern Ireland after the prime minister previously insisted it would never do so.
The UK prime minister said before last year's general election that no such posts would ever be created.
"There's no question of there being checks on goods going NI/GB or GB/NI," Johnson said in December.
Johnson told Northern Irish businesses that they should throw customs forms in the bin.
The UK government will now construct three border posts at Northern Irish ports.

Peregrina · 02/07/2020 08:11

One of the issues discussed was Child Benefit. European law means that a child does not have to be resident in a country for their parent to claim child benefit.

Who I wonder made this law? I ask because SIL and family emigrated in the late 70s and quite happily claimed child benefit for years. It makes me wonder whether it was an existing UK law?

As for Cameron not coming back from the EU with anything - could this be a) a biased anti-EU Press, or b) Cameron was a rubbish negotiator? He managed to wreck his own political career with his Referendum, so doesn't exactly look astute.

Could it also be that after years of belligerent posturing from the UK that the rest of the EU had had enough?

Fisheries back in the early 70s you may be right about, but much later on, no one forced our trawler owners to sell their quotas. As for Iceland, I think the UK had already lost in the Cod Wars.

A period of introspection may achieve something.
Is the bombast emanating from Downing Street likely to achieve this? I don't know how many times in the last few weeks we have heard blather about world beating this, or that, when a few weeks later the 'World beating' whatever fails to even get off the ground.

Peregrina · 02/07/2020 08:14

Boris Johnson's government has admitted that it will erect Brexit border posts with Northern Ireland after the prime minister previously insisted it would never do so.

Which I recall May's deal would not have done. But May was forced out.

InOutofmymind · 02/07/2020 08:15

@DdraigGoch There is a lot of inaccuracies in your last two posts.

So, the UK Govt negotiated away its fishing rights and its fishermen sold their boats and quota.
Nonsense to suggest new designs of hoover use more power than older designs or is less efficient, independent tests (one by Which?) prove otherwise.
European Arrest Warrant = anti human rights!!! i've heard it all now.

As for the referendums and Lisbon, the new votes were on negotiated treaties that addressed voters concerns, they were then democratically approved by the electorate or are you saying the electorate are Thick and didn't know what they were voting for?

Once again, brexitiers see democracy as a line in the sand, that cannot be revisited, bit like Putin "i ve been voted in, so that is for as long as i say it is"

hashtagbollocks · 02/07/2020 08:16

suzeyshoes that's really sad that people in your community are dying but can you tell me in what way they are dying as a direct result of brexit?

whenwillthemadnessend · 02/07/2020 08:17

The issues that lead to brexit are now going to be even worse with the loss of jobs through covid.

I totally understand why it happened and have a lot of sympathy for the situation.

I also get why trump is so attractive to many (not to me!!)

I pray the govt are up to the promises they made at that time. I'm not holding my breath but I never expected furlough from the torys so we will see.

cooliebrown · 02/07/2020 08:17

@Disquieted1 well there was a prolonged mis-information campaign relating to the EU, all sorts of 'straight banana' stories drip-fed into the national psyche over many years. Wasn't johnson one of the journalists who specialised in this?

whenwillthemadnessend · 02/07/2020 08:19

". Brexit is the biggest disaster to damage this country since WWII. ^"
^
I disagree. Covid 19 is a far bigger disaster. Brexit is penny's in comparison.