To think it’s dumb that international holidays are being encouraged in the middle of a pandemic

[Redolent]

AIBU to think is probably the part of the coronavirus pandemic that will lead to WTF reactions in future history books? A world clinging desperately to its globalized ways and unwilling to countenance altering them even in the midst of a crisis like this.

European countries have just gone through months of brutal economic and social lockdowns, with the goal of suppressing the virus. They’ve just experienced, at a huge cost, what it’s like to have the virus slowly and imperceptibly land within their borders via air travel.

And yet, just as the virus starts circulating at low levels, they all decide to open up their borders to each other again, in these supposedly safe ‘air corridors’. Enroute to their destinations, their citizens flock to public transport, then to busy airports and planes, where they sit for hours in the midst of other passengers, then on to their destinations, where they mix with other citizens coming in from all over the world too, in social and alcohol-fuelled conditions. In the meantime, governments - like the UK - have vowed that any outbreaks in other countries will mean that returning tourists may have to suddenly quarantine for two weeks upon their return home. It’s a panicked and volatile strategy, subject to a monitoring of the spread of the virus in multiple other countries. Of course it’s bound to go wrong.

TLDR: close the borders. Internationalism can wait.

stella your cabin crew friend will probably need to find another job whatever happens, because it is hard to see how many airlines will weather this kind of pandemic in the long term.

Pigeon what is the difference between someone driving to France and stopping for food, looks etc and someone driving to Cornwall? I genuinely don't see the difference.

Pigeon if only it were that simple. Where are these jobs going to come from? I've lost my job through Covid and despite many applications for jobs I've yet to get an interview. The job market is being flooded by people like me. It's just not as simple as get another job. I really think many people have no idea of the dire economic consequences we face.

@thegcatsmother

Even with the borders supposedly reopening within Schengen, my db still isn't allowed atm to travel from Belgium into France, and has no problem with that.

How so? No checks here on the French-Swiss border.

EasyJet have cancelled my flights in July to a Schengen country.

Crocodile Easyjet is cutting a lot of its routes, not necessarily because they don't think the flights will go, but because they can only afford to run the profitable flights partying if they need to have extra spacing on the plane.

Nicola Sturgeon may throw a spanner in the works

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8470567/Nicola-Surgeon-hints-try-BLOCK-UK-air-bridges-plan-quarantine-free-holiday-travel.html

Seeing the entire economy decimated by a second wave just to save the travel industry is lunacy. Utter lunacy.

Yes, especially when the first wave was arguably as a result of protecting the aviation industry. It seems no lessons have been learned.

Agree, the aviation industry is always the golden child, everything is done to appease and protect it.

what is the difference between someone driving to France and stopping for food, looks etc and someone driving to Cornwall?

I reckon it comes down to infection rates at destination. So travelling to a country who have eradicated it very different to one that is the same (NZ v US).

I just looked Greece has had 191 deaths, very low. Economically also likely on a cliff edge but not an easy decision to increase likelihood of infection.

On Cornwall v France I’m not sure where France are at with cases.

On the aviation industry I have heard industry heads talking about it being a large factor in underpinning entire economy. I haven’t looked more into it but interested in hearing more.

We are hoping to go to Greece if possible in the next few weeks. The hotel we usually stay it is offering half price deals. We would have our dd age 14 and our son and his gf.
Son and gf are still furloughed, my husband has worked from home and I’ve worked in care setting throughout and have already had Covid.
There have been so many mixed messages and mess ups, some really heart breaking stories.
I’ve supported very ill elderly people throughout the last few months, I couldn’t stay at home safely, and when I did fall ill I was paid statutory sick pay of 90 odd pounds a week!
Selfish or not things have to start moving at some point. Otherwise industries will collapse.
I’m just going to start doing what I think is best, life is a risk, I risked mine working with Covid patients. A holiday is a tiny risk compared to that, especially for young healthy people.

Well, they will say that, won't they? It's subsidised by all of us because aviation fuel isn't taxed, so it's a drain on all taxpayers.

The aviation industry has a formidable lobby. Who cares about sustainability and clean air?

@rookiemere that's quite possible, wasn't a very holidayish destination. Least it stops me worrying about whether to go or not!

Yes they would, of course.

"Aviation is the lifeblood of this country's economy, and until we get Britain flying again, UK business will be stuck in third gear,"

It’d be interesting to rate how much each sector is a ‘lifeblood of the economy.’

I would not be unhappy if we moved away from the recent move to very low cost flights.

Our flights to Jersey got cancelled as it seems EasyJet isn't running that route any more. Hey ho looks nice so hope they start running there again in the future.

I have just had to decide whether to lose my deposit or commit to fly to France for an out doors sort of holiday in August booked last year. I have gone with it after lots of agnonising. The plane seems to me to be the most risky bit. I am hoping the numbers will keep coming down. If a second wave comes along I suppose it will be cancelled anyway. Lots of rules in France and the levels aren’t that different so I am not so worried about catching anything while I am there.

@pigeon999

Some will travel, some will choose not to but everyone should be being really careful

You can't really be careful at all on a packed flight with everyone brushing by and sitting so close in every direction can you? Nor on the terminal bus when you are all squished in at close quarters. What can you do when you are moving through the airports, transfers and all the rest. By definition you have increased your risk many many multiples over, and if you come home and infect many more - even without meaning to - you will have contributed to the resurgence of the virus and all that comes with it.

So no, I don't agree with the sentiment that everyone should do whatever they think is best, because generally speaking it won't be them that will pay the price. It will be the cabin crew, the elderly check out lady, the poor chap lugging the suitcase with a vulnerable child at home. It is not just the person travelling that will live with the consequences.

I am really incredulous that people are still not fully grasping the responsibility they have to others.

Everything we do, especially now, will have a profound effect on others.

The butterfly effect has been magnified, and now the ramifications can lead to death it is not a decision I am taking lightly.

But this is my point - you can do things to mitigate all of those risks. You can wear masks, you can go on a less crowded transfer bus (I suspect there will be more buses anyway), you can avoid touching things and use hand sanitiser etc My point is exactly what you say - people should grasp the responsibility they have to others and protect themselves and each other by following the guidelines but I don't see how an airport bus is different from a bus in the UK; how moving through the airport is different from moving through the supermarket. I personally wouldn't want to take the small risk on a plane, but my point is that there is risk everywhere, and the only practical defence is to do all the really boring, small things that will actually help prevent the virus spreading here, and in other countries.

Obviously every sector will stake their claim. Helen Mirren representing theatres and making a case on R4 this morning. Needed as a worldwide attraction.

But the extent to which a sector impacts beyond just job losses in own sector may differ to various degrees.

Where is the evidence that large numbers of people were catching covid 19 during flights, rather than catching it by mixing with infected people at their destination? Were cabin crew and pilots falling ill more than any other profession in the world? I haven’t seen any evidence to suggest that - even though, on long-haul, cabin crew and pilots also stay over at the destination, for shorter periods than normal travellers. I have seen evidence to suggest that people subsequently known to be infected with covid 19 during extremely long flights didn’t pass the infection in to anyone near them.

Don’t travel if you don’t want to, but don’t pretend the risks of going from the UK to a country with a lower infection rate than the UK are massive compared to all the risky things people can do in the UK, a country with far less rigorous expectations of behaviour, and lower covid 19 hygiene standards, than the lower risk countries people might be allowed to fly to. The risk is for the countries mad enough to accept the Brits - I think they are the mad ones. As for people making claims about airports and flights being jam-packed, with people travelling cheek by jowl, I’m not sure what fantasy world you live in, but I would be amazed if there were enough people travelling through airports this summer for that to happen.

Absolute madness, but everyone I know with a holiday house abroad has already bought flights - and ferry tickets just in case the flights are cancelled.

Passenger flights usually carry cargo in the hold, too. Of course the aviation industry is extremely important for businesses beyond the aviation sector. Lots of the PPE the UK is importing in vast quantities is coming into airports on commercial flights. Like it or not, an island like the Uk needs an aviation industry, so no point poo-pooing job losses in engineering and at airports as relatively unimportant.

Where is the evidence that large numbers of people were catching covid 19 during flights, rather than catching it by mixing with infected people at their destination?

It doesn't matter though, does it?

Air travel spreads it by moving massed infected passengers from on country to another, and very effectively.

The fact that people might not necessarily get infected on a flight is neither here nor there. The infection travels, it doesn't matter if it spreads on the flight itself or if it was imported on it.

Where is the evidence that large numbers of people were catching covid 19 during flights, rather than catching it by mixing with infected people at their destination? Were cabin crew and pilots falling ill more than any other profession in the world?

Cabin crew aren't in one seat for hours and don't spend a prolonged period of time near the same passengers so probably have less chance of being infected. Pilots are very much separate from passengers and it would be easy to socially distant from anyone apart from the copilot. There have been clusters among cabin crew in some airlines though.

ChardonnaysPetDragon - that’s logical when thinking about spreading covid 19 to a country that doesn’t have it, but illogical when talking about going to a country with endemic covid 19 already, at a lower rate than the country you are coming from.
mrpumblechook - see my point that the evidence does not point towards high levels of transmission on flights where people were sitting close to each other for hours. As for clusters of cabin crew - they do socialise together at their destination, so that too points to the greatest risk being at the destination, not in the flight.

The infection travels, it doesn't matter if it spreads on the flight itself or if it was imported on it

People spread the infection. If people stopped mixing the infection stops.