To think it’s dumb that international holidays are being encouraged in the middle of a pandemic

[Redolent]

AIBU to think is probably the part of the coronavirus pandemic that will lead to WTF reactions in future history books? A world clinging desperately to its globalized ways and unwilling to countenance altering them even in the midst of a crisis like this.

European countries have just gone through months of brutal economic and social lockdowns, with the goal of suppressing the virus. They’ve just experienced, at a huge cost, what it’s like to have the virus slowly and imperceptibly land within their borders via air travel.

And yet, just as the virus starts circulating at low levels, they all decide to open up their borders to each other again, in these supposedly safe ‘air corridors’. Enroute to their destinations, their citizens flock to public transport, then to busy airports and planes, where they sit for hours in the midst of other passengers, then on to their destinations, where they mix with other citizens coming in from all over the world too, in social and alcohol-fuelled conditions. In the meantime, governments - like the UK - have vowed that any outbreaks in other countries will mean that returning tourists may have to suddenly quarantine for two weeks upon their return home. It’s a panicked and volatile strategy, subject to a monitoring of the spread of the virus in multiple other countries. Of course it’s bound to go wrong.

TLDR: close the borders. Internationalism can wait.

@Fluffybutter

Thank you to the two scientists up here ⬆️ So glad you were able to educate me .. Just so you know though , I can categorically state that there will be no second lockdown , it will not happen . Will some things close back up ? Yes probably but will it be like the first lock down ? Nope

There doesn't have to a lockdown simliar to the first for the economy to collapse. You can't force people to go to pubs, restaurants cinemas, theatres etc so if infection rates increase they will lose customers and go out of business anyway. School will also shut when pupils get infected so that will have more impact on their education.

Where does it say we have to keep our activities to a minimum?

i am profoundly grateful that Brits won't be coming to our country. Given the number of our citizens and permanent residents who return from or via the UK whom we have to quarantine and who actually have Covid 19, I can't help but think the air bridges are a mad scheme. I imagine it will be like Neville Chamberlain's peace in our time and we all know how that turned out. Of course thanks to our stance our schools, restaurants, hairdressers and so on are open and operating.

stella I think it should be fairly obvious to most people that we do what we need to do in a careful way, I for one won't be spending hours shopping and browsing for instance, I will shop with a purpose or simply won't go. I try to do most of my shopping in one go, as repeated visits increases risk.
I will only see and socialise with people that are important to me etc etc as everything needs thinking through in terms of risk and exposure. Most people are living like this now.

I am not back to doing normal activities at all, I can't go to the gym or a spa, I can't go to my weekly dance and yoga class. My friends and I are no longer meeting inside each others homes. My children are not at school. The idea that we can continue the same level of activities as before is really not my experience whatsoever!!

Pigeon I agree we're not back to normal activities at all - I miss my regular yoga classes and swimming. But when the pool reopens, unless we're asked to minimise how often we go, I'll be going several times a week as I normally do. If you want to minimise activity of course that's fine, but unless we are asked to (and we aren't for shopping, exercise etc at the moment) then I'm pretty sure most people will do what works for them and which is perfectly fine.

fluffy lets hear from the real scientists then, lets start with Sir Jeremy who has now issued a warning about an imminent rise of infection within weeks, even days. He is quite sure, as are many other members of SAGE that a very nasty rebound of the virus is going to happen. All the modelling points to that, I am not sure why you feel qualified to state that another lockdown is impossible, based on what?

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/uk-coronavirus-second-peak-knife-edge-jeremy-farrar-andrew-marr-a4482306.html

stella I am not minimising some activities because the government told me so, I am doing so for my own protection.

I don't want to catch coronavirus, I have no intention of finding out if my slightly older dh will be one of the lucky or unlucky ones. I am not interested in putting my kids through the stress of severely ill parents, nor passing it to others that are much more likely to die than I am.

So therefore I AM being much more careful about what I am doing with my life each day, and the kind of activities we are doing as a family. I am making some calculations based on risk whether something is worth doing - how much risk is there likely to be etc. We should be told to do this, it should be totally obvious.

What you decide to do with your life is a matter for you, and you may not have commitments or responsibilities, so your choices and decisions are likely to be very different from mine. We are responsible for ourselves and the speed of the rebound of the virus depends on all of us making sensible, considered decisions every day.

*not need to be told this

Aviation jobs are already being lost. Someone further up mentioned about Rolls Royce and possible job losses. This has already happened. Rolls Royce employs 52,000 people worldwide. Around 9000 are set to lose their jobs, a significant number of these from Derby.

barefoot If I am having to choose between aviation job losses and the combined collateral damage of a second wave with a massive spike in deaths and even more job losses in all other sectors I know which one I will choose!!!!!!

Seeing the entire economy decimated by a second wave just to save the travel industry is lunacy. Utter lunacy.

One can only hope most, not all, people will understand what is at stake, and stay at home or holiday at home this year.

Seeing the entire economy decimated by a second wave just to save the travel industry is lunacy. Utter lunacy.

Yes, especially when the first wave was arguably as a result of protecting the aviation industry. It seems no lessons have been learned.

I am more gung ho than most about getting the economy up and going again, but this is absolute lunacy.

These threads are quite strange. I am not sure why people don't just do what they think is right to protect their families and stay within the guidance? We are going away, but we rebooked so that we could take the Eurotunnel and will be steering clear of other people and wearing masks.

For us, it is worth it because we love where we stay and lots of what we like to do as a family is long, familiar walks and sunset beach picnics - we don't really like to be around crowds. We will take lots of food with us, along with extra cleaning products, and we think we will be as safe in France as we would be in the UK. And we will be as careful abroad as we would be at home. Everyone is surely just feeling their way and trying to work out what to do for the best?

My parents, in their 70s, who normally come with us aren't coming this year, which makes complete sense, and I personally would have been more wary when the kids were smaller but that is a personal opinion based on my kids and the likelihood that they would be able to keep their distance from anything exciting (or stop themselves putting their fingers in the mouths all the time!).

I personally wouldn't fly, but wouldn't judge someone else for doing so as long as they took precautions to protect other people.

I think the whole thing is crazy - every country is different and the idea that we should be competing with each other is just madness. The thing I hate most about the pandemic is the way it has somehow legitimised people just being cruel and rude to each other. I grew up in Devon - it's all very well telling tourists not to come, but thousands of jobs will be lost. With the exception of our sh*itshow of a PM and cabinet (personal opinion) the actual response in England, Scotland and Wales has been very similar. I spend a lot of time looking at the stats, and the most striking aspect is how different the demographics are within the nations, not just the government responses.

Some will travel, some will choose not to but everyone should be being really careful. The guidelines are clear on how you can avoid catching or passing on the virus (masks, social distancing, isolating etc); to my mind, we should all be doing those things and trying to live our lives.

I don’t think it’s strange to discuss whether government policy is a good idea or not. Whether travel, work or schools.

And even whether it’s a good for other countries.

@pigeon999

barefoot If I am having to choose between aviation job losses and the combined collateral damage of a second wave with a massive spike in deaths and even more job losses in all other sectors I know which one I will choose!!!!!!

Seeing the entire economy decimated by a second wave just to save the travel industry is lunacy. Utter lunacy.

One can only hope most, not all, people will understand what is at stake, and stay at home or holiday at home this year.

I agree with this sentiment. There’s a risk that the aviation industry might be screwed in the short-medium term anyway. It won’t operate according to its old freedoms for a while yet. Once a vaccine starts to be rolled out, countries might become even more defensive regarding their borders and who they admit into them. Mandatory covid testing upon entry and before departure could come into force (if it were something like a 30 min saliva test that would be a game changer).

Many countries are desperate for tourist income but by the end of the summer we’ll know if this has come at a huge cost to their other sectors.

New wedding rules are out.

Your father can't walk you down the aisle with his hand on your arm but you can share armrests with complete strangers either side of you...

On a plane, that is

These threads are quite strange. I am not sure why people don't just do what they think is right to protect their families and stay within the guidance?

We have one of the highest death rates in the world and our economy is tanking. This means either people are not following the guidelines properly or the guidelines themselves have not been good enough.
There is nothing "strange" about questioning the guidelines or whether people are following them.

These threads are quite strange. I am not sure why people don't just do what they think is right to protect their families and stay within the guidance?

Because people's actions and choices have a direct impact on the figures and therefore, an impact on other people.

If it's only going to affect them, then people can take all the risk they like. Going on holiday is likely to affect others in the long run.

Aviation jobs are already being lost. Someone further up mentioned about Rolls Royce and possible job losses. This has already happened. Rolls Royce employs 52,000 people worldwide. Around 9000 are set to lose their jobs, a significant number of these from Derby

Agreed..

This whole issue is far from abstract for the tens of thousands (>100,000 perhaps) of employees in many companies who are working under the shadow of a S188 process and with redundancy consultations/negotiations ongoing....

It's not just airline employees, it's sub-contractor ground staff, staff in the terminals, ATC and associated staff (NATS a re talking about redundancies), staff who work providing catering, the cargo outfits..etc etc etc....the hit on communities around airports will be massive....

Some will travel, some will choose not to but everyone should be being really careful

You can't really be careful at all on a packed flight with everyone brushing by and sitting so close in every direction can you? Nor on the terminal bus when you are all squished in at close quarters. What can you do when you are moving through the airports, transfers and all the rest. By definition you have increased your risk many many multiples over, and if you come home and infect many more - even without meaning to - you will have contributed to the resurgence of the virus and all that comes with it.

So no, I don't agree with the sentiment that everyone should do whatever they think is best, because generally speaking it won't be them that will pay the price. It will be the cabin crew, the elderly check out lady, the poor chap lugging the suitcase with a vulnerable child at home. It is not just the person travelling that will live with the consequences.

I am really incredulous that people are still not fully grasping the responsibility they have to others.

Everything we do, especially now, will have a profound effect on others.

The butterfly effect has been magnified, and now the ramifications can lead to death it is not a decision I am taking lightly.

We’re not all going via airports to crowded resorts.

Pigeon999 cabin crew are already paying the price. My friend is desperate to get back to work before she's made redundant. She's worried sick about her future. As are her colleagues.

There is no simple answer to this.

But many are parker and even those that are driving will need to stop, use the loo, fuel, food stops. It is impossible to travel without coming into contact with various numbers of people. Yes your risks may be lower, but they are still there.

I also wonder just how these countries are going to feel if they get a a very nasty second wave because they were flooded by tourists...It could sow some very bad feeling indeed, particularly if the second wave is more deadly than the first, and they see very high levels of suffering and death. Those countries will very rightly blame the tourists for this, and although I understand the economic argument I do wonder how important this will seem when their hospitals are overrun again, and the morgues are filling up once more.