To think it’s dumb that international holidays are being encouraged in the middle of a pandemic

[Redolent]

AIBU to think is probably the part of the coronavirus pandemic that will lead to WTF reactions in future history books? A world clinging desperately to its globalized ways and unwilling to countenance altering them even in the midst of a crisis like this.

European countries have just gone through months of brutal economic and social lockdowns, with the goal of suppressing the virus. They’ve just experienced, at a huge cost, what it’s like to have the virus slowly and imperceptibly land within their borders via air travel.

And yet, just as the virus starts circulating at low levels, they all decide to open up their borders to each other again, in these supposedly safe ‘air corridors’. Enroute to their destinations, their citizens flock to public transport, then to busy airports and planes, where they sit for hours in the midst of other passengers, then on to their destinations, where they mix with other citizens coming in from all over the world too, in social and alcohol-fuelled conditions. In the meantime, governments - like the UK - have vowed that any outbreaks in other countries will mean that returning tourists may have to suddenly quarantine for two weeks upon their return home. It’s a panicked and volatile strategy, subject to a monitoring of the spread of the virus in multiple other countries. Of course it’s bound to go wrong.

TLDR: close the borders. Internationalism can wait.

just be more honest with your assessment. It’s not so much the risk you are really bothered about as the fact you think people just fly too much in the first place..

I'm bothered about the risk too though. As I said, I'm not saying people should stay indoors as that would and has had a big impact on the UK economy. However it seems that many people are happy to take risks that have very little benefit to the UK economy. It's nice for them that they don't feel the need to save in case they lose their job in the future due to the economic downturn but not so nice that they prioritise holiday abroad over their child's education.

mrpumblechook - but what are you basing your conclusion that travelling to a lower risk country than the one you are from is an unacceptable risk? Why are you assuming that all airlines will be packing passengers in without taking any safety precautions and that airports will be riddled with filthy surfaces and dangerous people? And why do you think it’s safer to go out and about in the Uk, when you really mean you think it’s good for the economy, so suddenly worth the risk in your eyes?

Do you think Greece, Spain and France would be more likely to lie about their infection rates than the UK?

@Walkaround

mrpumblechook - airports and airlines and engineering firms in the UK (eg Rolls Royce) make huge sums of money for the UK economy. Businesses base themselves near airports for a reason, too - they need airports to remain profitable and keep operating. The local economies around large airports are hugely reliant on them for direct and indirect employment.

I agree. Just switching off the aerospace industry indefinitely will be devastating for many parts of the UK.

'Analysis by the Centre for Cities thinktankhas found that Crawley in West Sussex has the highest risk of job losses in the UK, with at least half of all jobs likely to be furloughed or lost, because of its status as a service town for the travel and aviation industry centred on nearby Gatwick.

With just under 20% of jobs in travel and aviations, compared with 1% on average in other large towns, the thinktank classified more than 53,000 jobs as vulnerable and very vulnerable in Crawley, of about 94,000 in the area.

Luton and Derby (where aero engine manufacturer Rolls Royce employs 12,000 people), which also have large proportions of workers in aviation, will also suffer major job losses, the analysis forecasts, with more than 40% of jobs being vulnerable. Areas of London closest to Heathrow with concentrations of aviation jobs would be hit similarly'.
www.personneltoday.com/hr/regional-jobs-analysis-reveals-towns-hardest-by-coronavirus-crisis/

Couldn't agree with you more.

How people getting a fortnight in the sun is important right now is so far beyond me that I can't even make out the shape in the distance.
Absolute balls.

Holidays aren’t just time in the sun. Some of us want to travel to see our families. I will definitely be travelling.

Boris Johnson seems to believe that Australia will happily sign an air-bridge agreement with the UK. I think this is unlikely at best.

The man is suffering from delusions - dream on Boris!

I would genuinely be interested to know how everyone who is going to be visiting hotels will be ensuring that their toddlers/young children socially distance from one another. I'm asking this because in social-distancing terms, I have had a fairly disastrous afternoon and have had to conclude that my 2 year old is fundamentally incapable of doing it. We have learnt some harsh lessons today and we are going to have to re-think how we meet up with friends in the future.

Perhaps some small kids are able to do it, and good for them, but really, come on - I strongly suspect that the more likely outcome is that children from different parts of the UK and different parts of Europe will meet/play without social-distancing at pools and beaches etc, and that these groups are likely to change from day to day.
There are also likely to be far more children in a small area than there would have been in your own back garden, unless you were literally planning on having three separate playdates each day. That's an awful lot of new potential transmission links. I still appreciate that people want to go on holiday, but it's a bit disingenuous to pretend that the risk of transmission is lower as a result of your holiday. Or if it is, then you clearly have far more obedient toddlers than mine!

@Thefifthbeatle

I would genuinely be interested to know how everyone who is going to be visiting hotels will be ensuring that their toddlers/young children socially distance from one another. I'm asking this because in social-distancing terms, I have had a fairly disastrous afternoon and have had to conclude that my 2 year old is fundamentally incapable of doing it. We have learnt some harsh lessons today and we are going to have to re-think how we meet up with friends in the future.

Perhaps some small kids are able to do it, and good for them, but really, come on - I strongly suspect that the more likely outcome is that children from different parts of the UK and different parts of Europe will meet/play without social-distancing at pools and beaches etc, and that these groups are likely to change from day to day.
There are also likely to be far more children in a small area than there would have been in your own back garden, unless you were literally planning on having three separate playdates each day. That's an awful lot of new potential transmission links. I still appreciate that people want to go on holiday, but it's a bit disingenuous to pretend that the risk of transmission is lower as a result of your holiday. Or if it is, then you clearly have far more obedient toddlers than mine!

I would never go to a hotel with a toddler. Can’t think of anything worse! Need a washing machine for a start! Villa with fenced pool or no pool.

Well, I’m also desperate to visit my parents abroad and I know they are really really missing not seeing their grandchildren this year, but what can you do? My parents are both high-risk. If they got sick from me, I’d never be able to forgive myself. We will visit them when it is safer. There are still many countries in the world whose infection rates are very very high. I think traveling internationally is still too risky yet. Too many people get sick and are asymptomatic.

@BigBirdsbird

Couldn't agree with you more.

How people getting a fortnight in the sun is important right now is so far beyond me that I can't even make out the shape in the distance.
Absolute balls.

But who are you to make this call? It’s not up to you is it? You don’t hold that decision making power. Everyone has been affected my this differently. Let’s respect that. Some people are at extreme risk of serious consequences if they catch it. I understand their fears, which I think have often been heightened after 3+ months in isolation. Many are not ready to come out of isolation which is totally understandable. But they need to accept that others are not in the same position as them and following government guidance should not receive this level of judgement. They’re not prioritising their holiday in the sun over anything else, they’re just choosing to do something their government has told them they can do. All you people who are clearly very angry, worried, frightened - that’s understandable, but don’t focus your anger on Susan who wants her annual trip to Salou, focus it on your government who have allowed Susan the choice.

I really cannot see how travelling abroad to any country will help the UK economy at all.

Can anyone enlighten me here!

Having spent every day since the beginning of March cooped up for 11 hours a day in an NHS basement office with no natural light and having the heating and a fleece on while a lot of people have been enjoying the sun, damn right I am going on holiday. Why would I take my chances with the UK weather, crowds and overpriced wine if I can go somewhere where none of that is an issue.

We are driving to the south of France in our own car, staying in a villa with a pool and we will socialise only with family. The beaches are never busy there anyway and the restaurant tables are mainly outside.

We have made our own assessment of the risks, we will adhere to all safety precautions, so OP and others don't you dare call me thick, irresponsible or any of the other sanctimonious insults on here. Also, having been in direct contact with literally hundreds of people with confirmed covid at work, I can assure you that stopping to use the loos in a service station does not mean you will get covid. I have always been obsessive with hand washing and finally hand washing and general hygiene seems to have increased across the board.

Even with the borders supposedly reopening within Schengen, my db still isn't allowed atm to travel from Belgium into France, and has no problem with that.

Well that's odd....

AFAIK that border like many other internal EU Borders opened a couple of weeks back.

france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/hauts-de-france/nord-0/deconfinement-phase-2-gouvernement-favorable-reouverture-frontiere-belgique-partir-du-15-juin-1834700.html

General article here:

www.euronews.com/2020/06/25/which-european-countries-have-opened-their-borders-ahead-of-the-summer-holiday-season

I have heard that holiday insurance might not cover COVID. This might put some people off?
The idea of planes and wearing masks all the time on board fills me with horror so I'm not going anywhere abroad.
I'm sure many will still go mostly because they don't want to lose their money. I totally understand this too!
It's a tough call.

It’s difficult to get new insurance which covers Covid but we take out an annual policy and it includes Covid.

@DuchessMinnie bloody well said! Enjoy your holiday,

I agree. Just switching off the aerospace industry indefinitely will be devastating for many parts of the UK.

Letting people continue to fly on holidays will be even more devastating for all of the UK though. We probably wouldn't be in this position if the UK and the rest if Europe had shut their borders in February. We didn't do that to protect the aviation industry and the result has been many deaths and potentially devastated UK economy. It's that at people lose jobs in that industry but they should have priority over everyone else in the UK.
Anyone who thinks flying on holiday is no more risky than going to the supermarket is totally deluded. People who have booked holidays are not going to self isolate if they feel ill. They will still go on a holiday unless they're very sick and they were still mixed with people once they are there.

It's that at people lose jobs in that industry but they should have priority over everyone else in the UK.

It's sad that at people will lose jobs in that industry but they shouldn't have priority over everyone else in the UK.

An annual insurance policy is the way to go then! I love Mumsnet as you get so much more information, thanks.

Nodding my head at Alldressedup I'm very bad at copying so I won't. But I agree with don't blame the individual who already booked their holiday, blame the government for allowing them to go.

The government were criminally reckless by not closing airlines down mid March. I was due to go on a ski trip 12th March to France and we decided not to go and lost all the money. Ironically I came back from my friends after making the decision and DH had covid symptoms anyway - caught we think from going out the weekend before when the France/Scotland rugby match was on.

If we'd closed airlines mid March we'd be in a much better position now, although living in Scotland this seems to mean entombed in the country keeping safe forever, as nobody has the answer on how to move forward opening things up without a vaccine.

We optimistically changed flights to Majorca for August but I am going to cancel the villa now and hope we can go next year. I think we've already had coronavirus- see above - but if we get identified by track and trace I doubt we'd get our holiday costs refunded, and whilst we were planning to fly, hire a car and stay in a private villa, if a lockdown was imposed our individual behaviour wouldn't change how we were treated. Also thought of maybe having to pay for emergency flights back or medical care - our insurance appears to be useless- was off putting.

If there are further outbreaks and people get kicked off these holiday destinations will the government be liable to repatriate as they did when people made reckless decisions before ?

And why do you think it’s safer to go out and about in the Uk, when you really mean you think it’s good for the economy, so suddenly worth the risk in your eyes?

I think it is safer to go out in the UK because people are more likely to stay at home with symptoms so you are less likely to come into contact with them. If people have spent a lot of money on their holiday some are likely to still fly even with mild symptoms because they won't want to lose the 1000s that they have paid for the holiday particularly if their insurance won't cover them.
Social distancing is fairly impossible on a plane and if you realise the person you are sitting near may have symptoms there isn't much you can do about it. At least on a train/restaurant/cinema you can get and go elsewhere if you want to.

Thats a good point mrpumblechook which I hadn't thought of. People won't want to lose the cost of their holiday and the list of coronavirus symptoms is so long that it would be easy to convince yourself you don't have it.

Borders were not not shut to protect the aviation industry - they were kept open because the WHO advised it would be a bad idea for all countries to close their borders to everywhere else. At the time, the WHO thought it would be far more harmful for global health and the global economy for countries to self-isolate from each other. The WHO is not in the pockets of the aviation industry. Please get your facts right before you make ludicrous claims about borders being kept open to suit the aviation industry.

For those who don’t think the FCO should be lifting travel restrictions to some countries, when do you think this should happen?