To think it’s dumb that international holidays are being encouraged in the middle of a pandemic

[Redolent]

AIBU to think is probably the part of the coronavirus pandemic that will lead to WTF reactions in future history books? A world clinging desperately to its globalized ways and unwilling to countenance altering them even in the midst of a crisis like this.

European countries have just gone through months of brutal economic and social lockdowns, with the goal of suppressing the virus. They’ve just experienced, at a huge cost, what it’s like to have the virus slowly and imperceptibly land within their borders via air travel.

And yet, just as the virus starts circulating at low levels, they all decide to open up their borders to each other again, in these supposedly safe ‘air corridors’. Enroute to their destinations, their citizens flock to public transport, then to busy airports and planes, where they sit for hours in the midst of other passengers, then on to their destinations, where they mix with other citizens coming in from all over the world too, in social and alcohol-fuelled conditions. In the meantime, governments - like the UK - have vowed that any outbreaks in other countries will mean that returning tourists may have to suddenly quarantine for two weeks upon their return home. It’s a panicked and volatile strategy, subject to a monitoring of the spread of the virus in multiple other countries. Of course it’s bound to go wrong.

TLDR: close the borders. Internationalism can wait.

It’s actually not just about our economy either, there are some places abroad that will go bust pretty quickly without tourism. They may not recover. In turn, we need people to travel over here too. The people who say holiday at home seem to either not go abroad often anyway so nothing has changed, or advocate for holidaying in your own country anyway. I may be wrong. Holidaying in your own country wouldn’t make that up. I like breaks in the UK as well as travelling abroad, however it is extortionate in comparison, it’s nothing like a foreign holiday, the weather is rotten and it’s just a whole different thing. People are having a horrible time of it just now, we’ve all struggled through the last few months and it’s no wonder people are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and jumping for it.

I think people should be allowed to make the personal decision to travel. Just like you travelled in February which was probably the worst time to travel.

Ah yes, hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing. I was also in Venice in early January (hugely risky in retrospect, but little known risk at the time.) But as you are so familiar with the data, you will know that there were around 900 cases a day reported worldwide during Feb half-term. That figured has since escalated to 175,000.

So please explain why it is suddenly safer now than in February? Again, I'm genuinely interested.

@Cartesiandebt Why am I so keen to travel?
Other options in the UK simply do not compare to where I’m planning to go. They really do not. You can tell me how amazing x,y and z place are, but the weather is never guaranteed for any length of time and when it is good, we just cannot cope with the demand because we are simply not set up for it. I holiday in the UK at least twice a year, and have had some great times, but for me they are really not the same.
The issues you highlight will be issues in the UK holiday destinations too. There’s nothing we aren’t dealing with everyday. Queues for supermarkets, social distancing etc. The pool at the accommodation is open, as are the restaurants and bars but it will all be outside rather than inside like they are here, reducing the risk further.
The main risk you raise is the airport - but like I’ve said, I do not expect the cattle shed that some are predicting. From what I’ve read, I expect this will be very carefully managed to be as safe as it can be. And as I’m not flying from Heathrow, I think the numbers of people who have just returned from South America/India etc will be minimal/zero. If this thread is anything to go by, I’ll be 2m away from Janet and Doug from Stockport who are going to their private villa in Javea or Athena visiting her family in Greece.
I accept it won’t be the same holiday - life isn’t the same - but I’d rather have this scaled back holiday at my chosen destination than the same scaled back holiday in the UK.

[quote Parker231]@Devlesko - why would it be crap this year? We’re going to a gite in the Dordogne near a medieval village. The gite has a private pool and our friends live near by. It’s got everything we want for a perfect holiday.[/quote]
@Parker231- I think people just tell themselves holidays will be shit for others because it makes them feel all self righteous and justified in their rants. We are same as you- private transport, house, pool, -friends nearby too. Bliss.

[quote Alldressedup]@Cartesiandebt Why am I so keen to travel?
Other options in the UK simply do not compare to where I’m planning to go. They really do not. You can tell me how amazing x,y and z place are, but the weather is never guaranteed for any length of time and when it is good, we just cannot cope with the demand because we are simply not set up for it. I holiday in the UK at least twice a year, and have had some great times, but for me they are really not the same.
The issues you highlight will be issues in the UK holiday destinations too. There’s nothing we aren’t dealing with everyday. Queues for supermarkets, social distancing etc. The pool at the accommodation is open, as are the restaurants and bars but it will all be outside rather than inside like they are here, reducing the risk further.
The main risk you raise is the airport - but like I’ve said, I do not expect the cattle shed that some are predicting. From what I’ve read, I expect this will be very carefully managed to be as safe as it can be. And as I’m not flying from Heathrow, I think the numbers of people who have just returned from South America/India etc will be minimal/zero. If this thread is anything to go by, I’ll be 2m away from Janet and Doug from Stockport who are going to their private villa in Javea or Athena visiting her family in Greece.
I accept it won’t be the same holiday - life isn’t the same - but I’d rather have this scaled back holiday at my chosen destination than the same scaled back holiday in the UK.[/quote]
@Alldressedup- I agree UK in itself is probably less safe as tourist destinations will be rammed, it really isn’t the same holidaying in U.K. it just isn’t.

I'm pretty astounded by the delusion of the UK government. They're going to allow 'air bridges' between the UK and countries with low infection rates. But they're oblivious to the fact that pretty much every country has lower infection rates as the UK. Do any of these countries want Brits travelling with their germs?

@Cartesiandebt Just to qualify - I have had the holiday booked since November. The flights have been cancelled but I can rebook. The accommodation is booked and largely paid for. It’s self-catering, we’ll have our own chalet, private transfers to the resort etc.

I'm pretty astounded by the delusion of the UK government. They're going to allow 'air bridges' between the UK and countries with low infection rates. But they're oblivious to the fact that pretty much every country has lower infection rates as the UK. Do any of these countries want Brits travelling with their germs?

Hard No!
But just cause boris and co wants in doesn't mean they will open the door.

Do any of these countries want Brits travelling with their germs?

Entire Med regions (and even some countries) are entirely dependant upon tourism, and UK tourists often make up the majority of their customers. Of course, they want the UK people to go, because they need the money. That's why some countries, such as Cyprus are offering "safeguards" such as guaranteeing to put your relatives in a nearby hotel if you end up hospitalised due to Covid.

But they are opening the doors! They do want us!

If you have been watching it 'obsessively', you must surely have noticed the exponential rise in cases over the past 2-3 weeks? Yet you think it's fine to travel? There's a massive flaw in your logic.

But it's not?

Other European holiday destinations want us so much that Portugal is pissed off that it looks like the UK will be leaving it off its first Travel Bridge list. I find it bizarre that some people on here are ranting about how unsafe it will be to travel to countries with lower infection rates than here while simultaneously arguing we should be holidaying in the UK. Try being a bit consistent, please - either tell everyone to carry on staying at home and only going out once a week to the supermarket, or stfu with your somewhat random views about safety.

And I am 100% certain that the UK will not be announcing air bridges with India or the Americas in the near future.

Try being a bit consistent, please - either tell everyone to carry on staying at home and only going out once a week to the supermarket, or stfu with your somewhat random views about safety.

It's the travelling abroad which is more likely to be a risk rather than the destination. I also think that people are bit deluded about the fact that spending abroad helps our economy. You will be helping another country's economy.

@Walkaround

Other European holiday destinations want us so much that Portugal is pissed off that it looks like the UK will be leaving it off its first Travel Bridge list. I find it bizarre that some people on here are ranting about how unsafe it will be to travel to countries with lower infection rates than here while simultaneously arguing we should be holidaying in the UK. Try being a bit consistent, please - either tell everyone to carry on staying at home and only going out once a week to the supermarket, or stfu with your somewhat random views about safety.

Absolutely!! I’ve been told to enjoy a staycation - what, with idiots like those who flocked to Bournemouth this week? Because the UK has such lower rates than these other places in Europe? It’s just false logic in my mind.

mrpumblchook - I find it bizarre you think this country’s economy can survive whilst every other country’s economy goes down the drain. Where do you think we are borrowing money from? And travelling abroad is really not significantly more dangerous than commuting to work, getting the train to Cornwall, going to the cinema, etc. So how about you just shop in the supermarket once a week and let others risk assess for themselves from the selection of activities they are allowed to partake in?

The idea that there is no middle ground in our current crisis between once a week supermarket shopping and flying out to another country is laughable.

@Redolent

The idea that there is no middle ground in our current crisis between once a week supermarket shopping and flying out to another country is laughable.

But what is this middle ground? Holidaying in the UK, where rates are higher than these other countries? That’s where the logic of your argument fails. These other countries are more at risk from us than vice versa.

I agree OP

Redolent - do you think flying to Greece with other British people, in masks, is significantly dangerous than going to the pub with them to drink? Do you think people will be more cautious at the pub, or in the airport and aeroplane?

I personally don’t think indoor dining, reopening of indoor pubs etc is ‘safe‘ in the UK at the moment, no. Indoor is crucial. But I realise I’m probably an outlier.

Nevertheless I still think it’s a lot less risky than going abroad. That’s partly because there’s no guarantee as to what the current infection levels of other places are are - remember, these are incredibly hard to determine. Germany’s R rate rose because of one localised outbreak and now they’ve imposed a lockdown on 350,000 people. Similar scenes will occur across Europe this summer -that’s to be expected.

Meanwhile the UK councils / govt can’t even determine if cases In Leicester have risen sufficiently to impose a lockdown there. How will they keep track of the R levels in thousands of destinations across Europe? So someone could fly out thinking a resort is safe, and end up stuck there in quarantine. Even worse, they could end up back in the UK without a quarantine and we find out that there had been an undetected rise in cases there in the last two weeks.

I guess my point is that the situation with the virus is so volatile, and the feedback loop as to current case numbers always delayed by 2 weeks. Countries that seemed to have very successfully suppressed the virus eg Croatia are seeing significant spikes.

All in all, I reckon it’s both safer on an individual level to be here, and from a public health perspective, far easier to stamp out rising infections in your own country than to rely on multiple other countries communicating what’s going on in their holiday destinations.

@Walkaround

Redolent - do you think flying to Greece with other British people, in masks, is significantly dangerous than going to the pub with them to drink? Do you think people will be more cautious at the pub, or in the airport and aeroplane?

I think pubs are probably one of the worst places for spreading the virus tbh. There were like 80+ cases linked to one pub yesterday in Michigan alone. I feel like their reclosure is probably inevitable.

I’m not really sure yet how ‘safe’ planes are in terms of circulating air. You don’t have to have a mask on as long as you’re eating or drinking, and they really are packed most of the time...

Redolent at what point do you think it would be safe for restaurants to reopen? I'm genuinely curious.

@stellakent

Redolent at what point do you think it would be safe for restaurants to reopen? I'm genuinely curious.

I don’t really know. Virus circulating at much lower levels for a start (not 3000-4000 cases estimate a day). If there are uniformly adopted, effective methods of ventilation as a prerequisite. Mandatory masks when up/away from the table. Things like increased spacing between tables. Temperature checks before entering (I know these are not accurate, but they can help).

I think Hong Kong managed to reopen restaurants successfully. Virus was at very low levels, and they had temp checks outdoors but no masks when inside.

I find it bizarre you think this country’s economy can survive whilst every other country’s economy goes down the drain.

Where did I say that this country's economy can survive whilst every other country's economy goes down the drain. I find it bizarre that you would conclude that is what I think. My point is just that if you want the UK economy to improve you would be better spending your money in the UK than in another country. Isn't that obvious?