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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it’s dumb that international holidays are being encouraged in the middle of a pandemic

730 replies

Redolent · 27/06/2020 23:09

AIBU to think is probably the part of the coronavirus pandemic that will lead to WTF reactions in future history books? A world clinging desperately to its globalized ways and unwilling to countenance altering them even in the midst of a crisis like this.

European countries have just gone through months of brutal economic and social lockdowns, with the goal of suppressing the virus. They’ve just experienced, at a huge cost, what it’s like to have the virus slowly and imperceptibly land within their borders via air travel.

And yet, just as the virus starts circulating at low levels, they all decide to open up their borders to each other again, in these supposedly safe ‘air corridors’. Enroute to their destinations, their citizens flock to public transport, then to busy airports and planes, where they sit for hours in the midst of other passengers, then on to their destinations, where they mix with other citizens coming in from all over the world too, in social and alcohol-fuelled conditions. In the meantime, governments - like the UK - have vowed that any outbreaks in other countries will mean that returning tourists may have to suddenly quarantine for two weeks upon their return home. It’s a panicked and volatile strategy, subject to a monitoring of the spread of the virus in multiple other countries. Of course it’s bound to go wrong.

TLDR: close the borders. Internationalism can wait.

OP posts:
FruitTingleFrizzante · 28/06/2020 13:59

Boris Johnson seems to believe that Australia will happily sign an air-bridge agreement with the UK. I think this is unlikely at best.

Boris is is deluded... Even Morrison isn't that stupid.
All indications Aus will keep borders shut well into next year (aside from nz/pacific bubble). It's pretty obvious that this is far from over but with borders controlled, kids are in school (never closed here- thankfully!) and pubs are open... we will sit back and watch this play out a bit... (can keep on exporting/mining/farming/building to keep the cogs and gears turning...)

Coronabegone · 28/06/2020 14:00

@Alldressedup brilliant post! 👏 👏 Fucking sanctimonious, patronising, feckers!

Thisisworsethananticpated · 28/06/2020 14:01

The sweeping generalisations here, that everyone going abroad are thick, ignorant, Brexit-voting drunks are appalling

Quite . I have to take DC to see family and right now the Flights are available and government says I can

So from a custody perspective it’s a tough one to argue

crosseyedMary · 28/06/2020 14:02

I will make the same decision for me and accept the consequences and the risks
But the consequences and the risks affect the wider community not just you
you are making choices about things which will affect all of us

HairyFloppins · 28/06/2020 14:03

@Alldressedup bravo!

Redolent · 28/06/2020 14:04

The government also said it was safe for mass gatherings to take place on 12th March. Anyone relying on their guidance as a way of ensuring the safety of their family is sadly misguided.

Of course you can make your own decisions at the individual level. As long as people comply with and don’t whinge to media if their hotel/district/region is quarantined for weeks abroad. And they accept any repercussions that ensues in terms of their employment.

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 28/06/2020 14:13

Meh rant lock on who cares.

Some decisions are stupid. Agree with Fruit re Aus, they’d be crazy to open up now.

mrpumblechook · 28/06/2020 14:17

@crosseyedMary

I will make the same decision for me and accept the consequences and the risks But the consequences and the risks affect the wider community not just you you are making choices about things which will affect all of us
Quite and that is why people aren't entitled to make judgements.
stellakent · 28/06/2020 14:20

Redolent If the FCO lift the travel ban and people choose to travel then they are free to do so and will be covered by whatever insurance they have. If we are not required to quarantine on return then people don't have to.

Someone holidaying in the UK has just as much risk of catching COVID than in many European countries. Things have moved on since 12th March.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 28/06/2020 14:22

I don't think how you voted in the referendum impacts choices on holidaying abroad

These past few months have shown us that despite your political leanings we are a nation that struggles with restrictions being placed on our lives as we are so used to having so much freedom.

As for travel I would be very wary going to some places I’ve just looked at insurance policies that’s enough to put me off

Alldressedup · 28/06/2020 14:27

@crosseyedMary But my decision to go to the supermarket could have consequences for everyone as I could catch it there.
This whole argument is totally flawed for the vast majority of people who expose themselves to risk every single day. I am not shielding, I have to go to the shops for food, take my children to school etc. I am 100% mitigating the risk of catching it as much as I can, but it cannot be completely removed. That’s what we need to get our heads round, that there is always a level of risk. If this is too high a risk for you, then take action to reduce it further. There’s personal responsibility here too. I have stuck rigidly to the guidelines and will continue to do so, that’s my responsibility. But if you expect me to do over and above because you personally are at increased risk, then I’m sorry but no - you are also responsible for keeping yourself safe, it’s not just on my head.

Redolent · 28/06/2020 14:31

@stellakent

Redolent If the FCO lift the travel ban and people choose to travel then they are free to do so and will be covered by whatever insurance they have. If we are not required to quarantine on return then people don't have to.

Someone holidaying in the UK has just as much risk of catching COVID than in many European countries. Things have moved on since 12th March.

I’m referring to local lockdowns that take place at the destination, eg the hotel in Tenerife that locked down over 1000 guests back in February.
OP posts:
user1497207191 · 28/06/2020 14:32

I will make the same decision for me and accept the consequences and risks. That is my right.

What about the "rights" of people you'll come into contact with when you return? Are you going to self isolate the moment you notice any symptom? Are you going to properly adopt social distancing, hand washing, respecting personal space etc?

Or are you going to go back to work straight away, be stroppy about not wearing masks on public transport or your workplace, go shopping in busy shops and not staying 2 metres away from others etc?

The trouble is, of course, it's your "right" to take your own consequences, but when your actions may affect others, then you have no right to potentially infect other people.

user1497207191 · 28/06/2020 14:34

The government also said it was safe for mass gatherings to take place on 12th March.

That was assuming the general public would actually comply with basic common sense, such as regular hand washing, social distancing, self isolating with symptons, etc. As we've seen, the main mistake at that time was assuming the general public would take those precautions. Far too many are too stupid and selfish to follow simple rules.

stellakent · 28/06/2020 14:41

Anybody showing symptoms should self isolate. It's nothing to do with going abroad. I don't understand this assumption that people choosing to go abroad on holiday rather than to somewhere in this country would behave less responsibly.

Alldressedup · 28/06/2020 14:42

@user1497207191

I will make the same decision for me and accept the consequences and risks. That is my right.

What about the "rights" of people you'll come into contact with when you return? Are you going to self isolate the moment you notice any symptom? Are you going to properly adopt social distancing, hand washing, respecting personal space etc?

Or are you going to go back to work straight away, be stroppy about not wearing masks on public transport or your workplace, go shopping in busy shops and not staying 2 metres away from others etc?

The trouble is, of course, it's your "right" to take your own consequences, but when your actions may affect others, then you have no right to potentially infect other people.

Don’t insult me by suggesting that I won’t comply with the rules! Like I’ve said, I have stuck to them rigidly since they were introduced and will continue to do so. Me and DH wfh so there’s no issues with using public transport and we’ll just carry on as normal. This whole ‘your actions have consequences for us’ thing is a bit ridiculous now. As though this is a new thing and it’s not occurred to me. Actions of others have always had consequences for the rest of society, this is no different. Where have I said that I will do anything other than what is asked of me? Nowhere. It’s just that some people don’t ‘approve’ of my choices. Have the balls to say it. That’s fine. But don’t try to justify this by insinuating I’m not a good citizen. Own your views!
BogRollBOGOF · 28/06/2020 14:43

@mrpumblechook

Tourism is a major sector of the economy.

So perhaps people should holiday in the UK. It wouldn't help the airline industry but will do a lot for the rest of UK tourism which will probably suffer from lack of overseas visitors this year. Why are airlines considered more important than other industries and whose economy do you think you are really helping when you spend 1000s abroad?

Aviation is a major, skilled, well paid industry that puts average salaries in my city up into the top 10 in the UK. People being made redundant in a specialised sector struggle to find similarly graded replacement work. I already know one family with young children who were taken off furlough and made redundant well over a month ago. They already rent a tiny cheap home and are at high risk of homelessness.

It's not just about people going off on their jollies, it's about financial survival. Tax revenues to pay for the NHS. The economy isn't really about the elites at the top of the chain, the first people to suffer and the last to recover are ordinary people.

Much of the money spent on foreign holidays is spent on British airlines and British tour operators. It's easy for people to get classist about the working classes heading off on all inclusives to the beach in Benidorm, but a significant proportion of that money cycles back to the UK economy rather than local Spanish businesses.

Cartesiandebt · 28/06/2020 14:44

@Alldressedup (and others keen to travel), can you try to explain why it is so important to you to specifically travel abroad at this time? I'm really genuinely interested. I have a couple of friends who are going abroad in August, but only because they had already paid and were unable to cancel. I don't personally know anyone who is actively choosing to go to another country this summer.

I'm someone who normally travels abroad a lot (for various reasons, work, holiday, family abroad) - in fact up to 20 times a year. But I haven't been abroad since our ski holiday in Feb and am not considering any unnecessary trips abroad until the global situation improves dramatically. The number of cases in the UK may seem to be falling, but this virus has spread via international travel, and on a global basis the number of cases is still rising dramatically.

Have you looked at this site? www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

There were 176,000 new cases recorded worldwide yesterday, up from about 130,000 a day last week & this is just the tip of the iceberg. Look at the data for India, Brazil, South Africa, Pakistan. People travelling from these places will probably be mingling with you in the airports you arrive at.

When you arrive at your destination, a lot of facilities will be closed, pools will only open to limited numbers at a time, there will likely be long queues to get into supermarkets, restaurants etc due to social distancing. It won't be like a normal holiday. If there's an outbreak where you are you might find yourself quarantined for 10-14 days and your travel insurance is unlikely to cover you. And as above, just traveling through air-conditioned airports will increase the risks, because there are likely to be other people travelling between high-risk destinations.

So what is it exactly about being abroad that is so important? The weather here has been good so far, the summer is forecast to be warm in the UK. We have access to good food and wine etc. Why the need to go abroad?

BogRollBOGOF · 28/06/2020 14:48

@user1497207191

The government also said it was safe for mass gatherings to take place on 12th March.

That was assuming the general public would actually comply with basic common sense, such as regular hand washing, social distancing, self isolating with symptons, etc. As we've seen, the main mistake at that time was assuming the general public would take those precautions. Far too many are too stupid and selfish to follow simple rules.

We also didn't know the extent of the virus through the community. It probably wasn't recently introduced from Italy and had likely been more widespread disguised by the usual coughs. colds and flu.

Now circumstances are different. The spread of the virus is identified by testing and tracing. We have better understanding of what the virus does, how to treat and who is at risk. Life is very far from normal social actions to facilitate super-spreading.

Interractions are gradually increasing but virus spread continues to gradually decline.

Devlesko · 28/06/2020 14:51

YABU you wouldn't catch me going, it isn't compulsory and people will make their own minds up.
I wouldn't want to come back to it being worse, and have to quarantine.
Fuck that, it would be so crap this year anyway.

HairyFloppins · 28/06/2020 14:51

@Cartesiandebt

Yes I have been obsessively watching worldometer since January and I was shocked people would go away in February.

I don't have to justify any reasons for wanting to travel to anyone, especially not on here.

Parker231 · 28/06/2020 14:55

@Devlesko - why would it be crap this year? We’re going to a gite in the Dordogne near a medieval village. The gite has a private pool and our friends live near by. It’s got everything we want for a perfect holiday.

Cartesiandebt · 28/06/2020 14:57

I was shocked people would go away in February

I don't have to justify any reasons for wanting to travel to anyone, especially not on here

You were shocked in February? So what has changed since February?

Suddenly cranking up international travel again when half the world is in the grips of the pandemic is surely asking for trouble?

Cartesiandebt · 28/06/2020 14:59

Yes I have been obsessively watching worldometer since January

If you have been watching it 'obsessively', you must surely have noticed the exponential rise in cases over the past 2-3 weeks? Yet you think it's fine to travel? There's a massive flaw in your logic.

HairyFloppins · 28/06/2020 15:02

I haven't said I'm planning to go anywhere yet. I am still watching the figures and see how they are if I decide to travel.

I think people should be allowed to make the personal decision to travel. Just like you travelled in February which was probably the worst time to travel.

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