To think it’s dumb that international holidays are being encouraged in the middle of a pandemic

[Redolent]

AIBU to think is probably the part of the coronavirus pandemic that will lead to WTF reactions in future history books? A world clinging desperately to its globalized ways and unwilling to countenance altering them even in the midst of a crisis like this.

European countries have just gone through months of brutal economic and social lockdowns, with the goal of suppressing the virus. They’ve just experienced, at a huge cost, what it’s like to have the virus slowly and imperceptibly land within their borders via air travel.

And yet, just as the virus starts circulating at low levels, they all decide to open up their borders to each other again, in these supposedly safe ‘air corridors’. Enroute to their destinations, their citizens flock to public transport, then to busy airports and planes, where they sit for hours in the midst of other passengers, then on to their destinations, where they mix with other citizens coming in from all over the world too, in social and alcohol-fuelled conditions. In the meantime, governments - like the UK - have vowed that any outbreaks in other countries will mean that returning tourists may have to suddenly quarantine for two weeks upon their return home. It’s a panicked and volatile strategy, subject to a monitoring of the spread of the virus in multiple other countries. Of course it’s bound to go wrong.

TLDR: close the borders. Internationalism can wait.

Yes, but many people have lost their jobs outside the travel industry because we didn't shut the borders soon enough in order to protect that industry. Why is the travel industry more important than other industries

It's not more important. Yes mistakes were made but there is nothing we can do about that now. We should now focus on saving industries that we can right now. Not on what we should have done. Because that doesn't help.

Not sure of your logic here. There have been many more deaths since March than usual full stop. If we hadn't had corona there would have been fewer deaths and the economy would be in better shape

Well yeah if we hadn't had Corona lots of things wouldn't have changed but we have, so what's your point?

the air on planes is filtered - You don’t get ill from the air on a plane. You wear a mask and everything is cleaned (probably better than its ever been). On Eurotunnel you are in your car so no risk there and a boat Channel crossing you can stay on desk and get plenty of fresh air.

I don't want to wear a mask for hours, why would I, nor do I want to put one on my child for hours. I was under the belief that their is still up to 40% recycled air before it is filtered.

I don't want to be in an airport and all rammed on a plane, it's not an environment I think is healthy. I wouldn't like to be in any enclosed space with masses of people. All you are doing is increasing the chances of passing the virus around, the more people you have contact with, the more you risk passing it around, resulting in the transmission rate rising.

But the boat deck will be pretty rammed if everyone on the boat is on the deck trying to get fresh air.

On the ships to Spain, everyone will have to check in, dine and amuse themselves it's just like a floating hotel, no thank you.

What about those of us who have already booked and paid for flights which have not been cancelled - over £4K paid, car hire and accommodation not yet paid for.

Not beach / pool hol as we do not do those, we do walking / sightseeing holidays. Not everyone sits on overcrowded beaches and sun bathes.

I think many people on these threads talking about it being silly to go away do not have any holiday booked anyway so it is not a consideration or have managed to get a refund or reschedule.

I’m really happy I will see my parents ! I haven’t seen them in 7 month so yes it’s the best news !

We are staying in the UK, avoiding the coast and focusing on walking to try and get our activity levels back to normal. We’d talked about moving from tent camping to caravan camping for a couple of years, this has just made us move on with the plan.
We’ll be aiming to shop in the town markets and local bakers and butchers, using my own facilities and avoiding crowds and tourist attractions.

It's part of understanding that Covid-19 is with us for a long time and we will learn to live with it, as Chris Witty tries to make us understand. People who rely on tourism for their income, both here and abroad are going to have a very short season. I understand where you are coming from OP, but to decimate all economies for a virus for a period of years, rather than months, also doesn't make sense. I'm only surprised that UK tourists are being allowed to enter so many countries.

@Bourbonbiccy - no one is forcing you to go on holiday. We are definitely going to see my parents in Belgium as we haven’t seen them since Christmas and since the air bridges news we’re now having our holiday in France. We’ve assessed the risks and are happy to go ahead.

It's not more important. Yes mistakes were made but there is nothing we can do about that now. We should now focus on saving industries that we can right now. Not on what we should have done. Because that doesn't help.

It does help to focus on what we should have done so that we learn from it and don't do it again i.e. avoid a second wave. We wouldn't be in this position of we had shut the borders and didn't let cases come in. Our focus on the travel industry has adversely effected many other industries and cost lives. This could happen again.

I find it very interesting on Mumsnet that there is a swathe of people who think we wouldn't be in the position we are in if we'd closed our borders and yet there is another swathe who think they had Covid in Nov/Xmas/Jan/Feb........

It's part of understanding that Covid-19 is with us for a long time and we will learn to live with it, as Chris Witty tries to make us understand. People who rely on tourism for their income, both here and abroad are going to have a very short season.

When they say learn to live with it they are talking about reducing the risk of catching it not ignoring it because you don't think you personally will be at high risk. People may rely on tourism for their income but if there is a second wave they will lose that income anyway.

There is still some recycled air, yes. But this is filtered every few minutes which reduced something like 99.7% of particles including those as small as Covid.

Wearing a mask can help too. I don't fancy long haul in a mask but 2-3 hours should be ok.

I find it very interesting on Mumsnet that there is a swathe of people who think we wouldn't be in the position we are in if we'd closed our borders and yet there is another swathe who think they had Covid in Nov/Xmas/Jan/Feb........

It would only be interesting if Mumsnet was one person.

Mrpumblechook. Yes, maybe. But it just shows how within a group of people views can be wildly different.

skyr2 My thoughts exactly. Everyone on these threads seems to think we're all rushing off to the travel agents with our inflatable lilos in tow!! Our holiday has been booked and paid for since last year. If the holiday company doesn't cancel we have to go, or good luck to us trying to get a refund. We're staying in a villa so relatively safer than a hotel. We can barely interact with anyone if we choose.

If I didn't have a holiday already booked there's no way in hell I would choose to book one this year. It's just sods law that we have.

I would be interested in how many of the people desperate to save the European tourism industry voted for brexit. But hey.

I'm looking forward to all the "I've got Corona and I'm stuck in a Spanish hotel which is closing and can't get home" threads. They will be a laugh.

We'll probably shed a tear over the, "I've blown all my money on two weeks in Portugal, and I've come back and I'm now unemployed, can't pay the mortgage, and the housing market has collapsed" threads.

But what can you do. People have been warned. You can't blame the government. These people are grown ups.

Personally, I don't mind if the figures go higher. I'm safe. You reap what you so. The ultimate irony is these people who are desperate to save the economy may be the ones that destroy it with a second wave.

But hey. What can you do.

The ultimate irony is these people who are desperate to save the economy may be the ones that destroy it with a second wave.

So very very true

Newjez. I can give you an answer for one. I didn't vote for Brexit and I want to save the tourism industry as it is the livelihood for so many people including me, and many of my friends. We have to do it in a safe and responsible way, as do other countries, but yes, I want to try and save it.

Lol at saving the planet and avoiding a second wave by holidaying or day tripping in the UK.

Yip, let's all go to Cornwall. That's a non controversial choice isn't it. On Scotsnet we've got posters who want to close the border with England to stop infected hordes breathing on us in North Berwick.

Every single one of us is someone else's germ carrying foreigner.

The hysteria around holidays is misplaced. Nobody is saying that you shouldn't be able to go on holiday if you are really desperate to do so, or if you will lose lots of money if you don't go, or you need to visit elderly parents in another country, etc.

However, morally, you should be willing to bear the responsibility for your own decision, and not try to pass the consequences on to other people. From a few of the responses on here, it seems that some people want to have the holiday but don't want the responsibility that goes with it - they huff and stamp and sulk when it is pointed out that they also should accept the moral obligations that should accompany it, in any civilised society where we all look out for those who are more vulnerable than us - the elderly, the children with underlying health conditions, the single parent who will lose her job if the schools remain closed in September.

It isn't necessarily selfish to want to go on holiday, but it's unbelievably selfish to go on holiday and then to fail to do absolutely everything possible to limit the consequences of your decision to your own family, by keeping yourself away from others for 14 days when you get back. Work from home, home educate your kids etc - do whatever it takes to make sure that you are keeping any repercussions to yourself. If you can't get any more time off work when you get back and you fear you will lose your job if you stay off another 14 days, then that needs to be factored into your decision making process. Why should the rest of us have to home educate our kids for another term, because you weren't willing to do it for 14 days?

What part of “the virus isn’t going anywhere we have to live with it”are you all struggling with

The part about it being completely untrue that a holiday next year will carry the same risks as this year, so we might as well go now.

By this time next year there's a good chance we'll be able to be vaccinated.

Treatment for COVID has improved as a result of research announced in the past month, there's a reasonable chance it will have improved further after another 12 months.

Lastly, the risk of contracting it should have fallen much further by next year.

The last point, I mean the risk of encountering someone with it will have gone down, even if there's no vaccine.

@Thefifthbeatle

The hysteria around holidays is misplaced. Nobody is saying that you shouldn't be able to go on holiday if you are really desperate to do so, or if you will lose lots of money if you don't go, or you need to visit elderly parents in another country, etc.

However, morally, you should be willing to bear the responsibility for your own decision, and not try to pass the consequences on to other people. From a few of the responses on here, it seems that some people want to have the holiday but don't want the responsibility that goes with it - they huff and stamp and sulk when it is pointed out that they also should accept the moral obligations that should accompany it, in any civilised society where we all look out for those who are more vulnerable than us - the elderly, the children with underlying health conditions, the single parent who will lose her job if the schools remain closed in September.

It isn't necessarily selfish to want to go on holiday, but it's unbelievably selfish to go on holiday and then to fail to do absolutely everything possible to limit the consequences of your decision to your own family, by keeping yourself away from others for 14 days when you get back. Work from home, home educate your kids etc - do whatever it takes to make sure that you are keeping any repercussions to yourself. If you can't get any more time off work when you get back and you fear you will lose your job if you stay off another 14 days, then that needs to be factored into your decision making process. Why should the rest of us have to home educate our kids for another term, because you weren't willing to do it for 14 days?

@Thefifthbeatle in your point re self isolation for 14 days, that’s been lifted now for a few key holiday destinations. Are you saying people should feel obligated to do this anyway?

Thefifthbeatle if there is a requirement to quarantine for 14 days on return I would absolutely do it. You are correct that people need to take responsibility.

However I don't think travelling to another country puts me at more risk of catching it than here. It isn't as if we don't have it here and could risk bringing it in. I'm as concerned about people here not following hygiene protocols as I am about those in other countries. At the moment you're as likely to catch Covid in the UK as in many European countries.

Hell, yes. Absolutely - morally, if not legally. I mean, I appreciate that it's not legally required, but how horrendously selfish would you have to be to do otherwise? Just to stamp your foot and demand to get what you want, and to hell with the consequences for anyone else?

There are lots of things that aren't legally required, bit you'd have to be a very unpleasant person to do them. Smoking around small children, letting your dogs behave in an anti-social manner and frighten others because you couldn't be bothered to train them properly, not offering your seat on the train for someone on crutches, etc. It's just part of living with others in a society. If you don't like the moral implications of that then go and be a hermit somewhere and leave social living to the rest of us who can balance our wants with others' needs.

(Sorry, worzel - I don't mean you personally. I mean "one". I'm sure you're very nice!)

There isn’t going to be a quarantine requirement for the countries with air bridges. The FCO will be lifting the restrictions on travel for those countries.