To think it’s dumb that international holidays are being encouraged in the middle of a pandemic

[Redolent]

AIBU to think is probably the part of the coronavirus pandemic that will lead to WTF reactions in future history books? A world clinging desperately to its globalized ways and unwilling to countenance altering them even in the midst of a crisis like this.

European countries have just gone through months of brutal economic and social lockdowns, with the goal of suppressing the virus. They’ve just experienced, at a huge cost, what it’s like to have the virus slowly and imperceptibly land within their borders via air travel.

And yet, just as the virus starts circulating at low levels, they all decide to open up their borders to each other again, in these supposedly safe ‘air corridors’. Enroute to their destinations, their citizens flock to public transport, then to busy airports and planes, where they sit for hours in the midst of other passengers, then on to their destinations, where they mix with other citizens coming in from all over the world too, in social and alcohol-fuelled conditions. In the meantime, governments - like the UK - have vowed that any outbreaks in other countries will mean that returning tourists may have to suddenly quarantine for two weeks upon their return home. It’s a panicked and volatile strategy, subject to a monitoring of the spread of the virus in multiple other countries. Of course it’s bound to go wrong.

TLDR: close the borders. Internationalism can wait.

I won't be going anywhere out of the UK and I think it is incredibly irresponsible to be opening up international travel when we are still potentially going to get a second wave (already started in the US).

I've been very disappointed by the response in England generally and how it is being influenced by lobbyists. Also we have a lot of dumb, angry people who don't like putting the collective good above their individual wants (not quite as bad as some of the utter lunatics in the US but still bad). We can open pubs and package holidays to Spain, but not gyms or community centres. Bread and fucking circuses is what it is.

It’s not just airlines facing huge redundancies as people haven’t been flying but aviation services company Swissport said it could cut 4,500 jobs in the UK and Ireland.

We had a holiday booked in the south of France which would have meant a long drive down and probably an over night stay on the way. While I'm sure once we got there it would have been bliss to be restricted to the holiday house (what's not to love about just hanging around all day at your own pool?!), the reason i wanted to cancel was the journey there, with 3 small dcs, there's no way we'd have been able to just motor through. We'd be stopping every couple of hours getting snacks, doing wees etc etc, so many opportunities to touch things and catch or pass it on!

Just wash hands after touching things? You are presumably all young and healthy? Such a shame to cancel.
Some people are still so paranoid they won’t take what are absolutely minuscule risks - these attitudes are what will contribute towards the huge oncoming global depression.

@Hopoindown31 - why do you think it’s safer to holiday in the UK than Eurotunnel/driving to a gite in France? People don’t all go on package holidays when they go on holiday abroad - we never.

many of us don’t choose hotels for our holidays. We’re going to a gite in France in the same village as our friends live. No wearing masks for us. Safer and cleaner than holidays in the UK.

The vote in France would not be my concern, the main concern I have is the aeroplanes themselves with 40% recycled air and being in confined spaces.
Or crammed on a boat or a eurotunnel.

Remember before you get too excited by these graphs for these countries they have had huge infections that just haven't been identified their graphs go up almost inline with their increased testing.

And the US? What is happening there? Not so easy to explain away with "hidden" data no-one can see (i.e. just an idea).

But again the equipment has been being pumped out 24/7 we have much much more capacity than we did at the start.

Good, it is where we should have been if the pandemic exercise recommendations had been actioned.

Big question is what are we going to do with 20,000 surplus ventilators at the end of all this?

They're not really any use to the NHS and no use to anyone if they're stored for ages.

Scrap? Aid donations?

Yep, absolutely no point in saving them as we will definitely never have another respiratory virus pandemic ever again.

Sorry gite, not vote, the gite in France

@GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit

I plan to drive to France then stay in holiday accommodation. I don't think it will be anymore dangerous to anyone else than staying in the UK. The main activity will be going on nice walks in the countryside. Mostly meals will be eaten in the self catering holiday accommodation. Not up for flying for the reasons mentioned above.

I am planning something similar. Three nights in Normandy via the Tunnel.

Keeps airlines and airports running, travel agents etc. I don't want them to be a thing of the past. I want to be able to have an affordable holiday In the future.

Arguably keeping those industries running has damaged the UK economy overall. If we had shut the borders earlier rather than worrying about the airlines we probably wouldn't be in this position in the first place. If the UK economy further declines you may not get an affordable holiday in the future anyway. It seems incredibly shortsighted to think your holidays are more important than global warming, deaths and the UK economy overall.

@Hopoindown31 - why do you think it’s safer to holiday in the UK than Eurotunnel/driving to a gite in France? People don’t all go on package holidays when they go on holiday abroad - we never.

Middle class skiing holidays were a major contributor to bringing the virus back to the UK. Just because your holiday is naice, doesn't make it safer. My comment was just an example, your Gite is not in perfect isolation and others from other countries will be driving their too, as well as the local population taking and returning from holidays.

Staying in the UK is effectively a much smaller step and still prevents the international mixing that saw the pandemic spread so rapidly in the first place. It isn't perfect and could still lead to transfer of the virus from local hotspots.

@Elsewyre

Uk/Europe as you were talking about travel to Spain. Not India....

Well then why don’t you look at the figures for Croatia? Great attempt at suppressIon until they opened up borders, nightclubs etc, including hosting Djokovic’s idiotic Adria tournament.

Record coronavirus hospitalizations confirm that it’s not just due to increased testing. That’s a very Trumpian claim that’s being debunked even by republicans.

Anyway I’m happy to take the word of renowned physician Dr Anthony Fauci that we’re still in the first wave of the pandemic.

Arguably keeping those industries running has damaged the UK economy overall. If we had shut the borders earlier rather than worrying about the airlines we probably wouldn't be in this position in the first place

Well yes I don't disagree with that, but we didn't do that so it's irrelevant when talking about what the next steps are.

If the UK economy further declines you may not get an affordable holiday in the future anyway

I know which is why i would like to see things happening so that doesn't become a reality.

It seems incredibly shortsighted to think your holidays are more important than global warming, deaths and the UK economy overall

My holidays aren't more important. People's jobs are more important though. There are many things we do do re global warming. I don't think grounding all flights is the answer, however.

People die every day. Corona is horrific, but not more important than any other death. Poverty causes deaths too.

I don’t want to waste loads of money going to another country to just sit on the beach for 2 weeks. No museums or attractions will be fully open. It will be boring as hell. Plus there’s a chance if something happens while you are away you insurance won’t cover you.

@Bourbonbiccy - the air on planes is filtered - You don’t get ill from the air on a plane. You wear a mask and everything is cleaned (probably better than its ever been). On Eurotunnel you are in your car so no risk there and a boat Channel crossing you can stay on desk and get plenty of fresh air.

Middle class skiing holidays were a major contributor to bringing the virus back to the UK.

Yes, people seem to forget this. We had had very few cases until February half term skiing holidays in Italy.

I do know some people who are travelling, and no judgement on them but I can honestly live without going abroad for a bit. We've booked 5 days self catering in UK somewhere we can do outdoor activities, but I wouldn't go abroad as things can change so fast - you don't want to get stuck somewhere and you don't want to be responsible for bringing an outbreak to another country.

I get people doing ferry/drive to the continent are creating less risk, but flying seems a bad idea and really one we can live without for a bit.

@Redolent in my opinion that evidence from Croatia should have already led to a travel ban by the EU and UK until cases drop further. The fact that it hasn't is just due to lobbying.

I am with you op. And I'm not sure that the argument about tourist resorts in the UK being overrun by Brits, or European resorts dying due to lack of Brits holds up. Britain usually hosts a lot of international tourists, who would not be here, and Spain would have either its usual influx of tourists from Germany, Netherlands etc. OR all the Spanish holidaymakers who cannot go abroad if Spain was also not allowing international travel.

what difference does it make to us if people travel to countries with lower rates than the UK? Corona is already here. There won't be an increased risk if people travel to European countries with much lower rates.

We should have put a plug on traveling/quarantine in place in March. Not now.

Fwiw, I have booked a flight to see my elderly parents. I am glad I can go now and won't feel guilty about it.

[quote Hopoindown31]@Redolent in my opinion that evidence from Croatia should have already led to a travel ban by the EU and UK until cases drop further. The fact that it hasn't is just due to lobbying.[/quote]
Yeah it’s really concerning. That fact that so many tennis players and coaching staff from that tournament tested positive for covid...and that their cases are being linked back to hotspots like nightclubs.

You would expect numbers there not to plateau until 2/3 weeks after restrictions have been implemented. But let’s see where they are in a week.

the air on planes is filtered - You don’t get ill from the air on a plane.

Do you actually believe that. Maybe they could filter it effectively and maybe they will but I don't think that has happened in the past with all airlines.. I don't think that they have been required to filter. Would you trust Ryanair to cough up on anything they didn't have to do? This link (www.afacwa.org/aircraft_air_qualitystates)

"Not all aircraft are equipped with HEPA (high-efficiency particulate air) filters because filters are not required. Also, filters are only effective if they are regularly inspected and changed. There are no such regulations in place."

Or crammed on a boat or a eurotunnel.

You stay in your car on the eurotunnel

You don't have to fly to visit your mother in France. You could get a boat/drive

Well you technically could but it depends where you are.

For us it would be a 9 hour drive to the ferry then a 5 - 6 hour drive once in the UK. We would only want to spend about 48 hours there so it's not a very practical option.

My holidays aren't more important. People's jobs are more important though. There are many things we do do re global warming. I don't think grounding all flights is the answer, however.

Yes, but many people have lost their jobs outside the travel industry because we didn't shut the borders soon enough in order to protect that industry. Why is the travel industry more important than other industries.

People die every day. Corona is horrific, but not more important than any other death. Poverty causes deaths too.

Not sure of your logic here. There have been many more deaths since March than usual full stop. If we hadn't had corona there would have been fewer deaths and the economy would be in better shape.

Or crammed on a boat or a eurotunnel.

As someone has said, you stay in your car on the eurotunnel. There is much more space on a boat than on a plane.