Mr and Mrs his initial surname 🤬

[ottermadness]

I just hate it, I’m not a Mrs and I have a name.

It’s nice that people remember to send anniversary cards though so I’m not going to be impolite.

AIBU that this gives me rage!?

@surreygirl I don’t understand your position at all. If you find a topic tedious, why click on the thread? Why comment? You’re spending the exact amount of time and effort as everyone else - do you need a hobby?

People are allowed to have views that you don’t share and care about things that you don’t. This doesn’t make conversations about said things ‘pointless waffle’.

I care about this "trifling nonsense" because the little things are what underpin the big things. Plus which, I'm quite capable of caring about a range of things at the same time.

@looluu My name is mine, I’ve always had it and I have chosen to keep it because it’s my name regardless of its origins. Exactly the same as my partner’s. These are the names with which we have traversed life and come into the relationship. Replacing my name with his name does not make any sort of rational sense to either of us, historical patriarchy is irrelevant to this.

I have now explained this thrice and I don’t feel I’ve been unclear. If you cannot or will not understand what I’m saying, then there’s probably no point explaining it a fourth time, so I’ll leave it. You are free to make your own choices regarding this, but so are other women. Dismissing said choices as ‘ironic’ or ‘bizarre’ because you are unable to understand the rationale is close minded. I am similarly unclear as to the logic behind your decision to take your husband’s last name, but I feel no need to belittle you for it.

Well if it doesn’t matter whether your birth name is patriarchal or not, why should it matter if you take your husband’s name or not?

Why would I randomly change my dad's name, following that logic, to my FILs? If my name is my dad's, so is DH's, right?

@looluu

Well if it doesn’t matter whether your birth name is patriarchal or not, why should it matter if you take your husband’s name or not?

Is it not just replacing “default patriarchy” with another name that comes to you via patriarchy - but at least you chose it?

We live in a country where adults can change their names, so unless you get married on your 18th birthday, if you keep your birth name as an adult it's a name you chose.

“This is how indoctrinated some are. They can't even see it”

Bugg - this is the post I was responding to. In my view, those who don’t / can’t accept that whether they have a name that comes from their father or husband, they are adhering to the exactly same system, that are the “indoctrinated” ones. But we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

A name is whatever you want it to mean.

@looluu

“This is how indoctrinated some are. They can't even see it”

Bugg - this is the post I was responding to. In my view, those who don’t / can’t accept that whether they have a name that comes from their father or husband, they are adhering to the exactly same system, that are the “indoctrinated” ones. But we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

A name is whatever you want it to mean.

They're probably not accepting it because it's wrong.

Your name, if you're a woman, is a woman's name. Giving up a woman's name to take a man's can't be anything other than patriarchal: if you do this when you marry, you know it is a decision that comes from patriarchy. Whereas very few of us have that certainty when it comes to our surnames. Some of course have names that came from women anyway, but for those who don't or don't know, very few of us know enough of our lineage to be aware of whether the name has been passed down by a woman. This means the two are different.

Katharina - if you change your name to your DH’s name on marriage, then yes, you are taking your FIL’s name. Thus is obvious (assuming his name didn’t home from his mother, in which case you are taking your MIL’s name).

Zombie - do most women’s names come from their father? Yes or no?

@looluu

Zombie - do most women’s names come from their father? Yes or no?

They do indeed. But as very few women know that their name has only come to them via patriarchy, ie from a man originally and through men ever since, this makes it different to a name they know for certain they are acquiring through the patriarchal decision to take their husband's name.

Although even for those women who can be certain, giving up your woman's name for a man's name is simply a less patriarchal decision than keeping it.

The point surely is that however I came by my name, why should I be expected to change it on marriage whereas men are not?

@Throckmorton I genuinely don’t get why this is such a difficult concept for some people, but it certainly appears to be.

Just because something was taught in school in the 80s (40years ago - surely not!) justifies it. I was taught to double-space after a period and I don't do that anymore!

*doesn't justify it!

Well you could equally ask why is the expectation still that children generally get their father’s name.

As I say, it’s the same tradition, just the other end of it.

The tradition of wives taking their husbands’ names and then their children getting the husband’s name too, are clearly one and the same tradition. You are born into it, or you may marry into it. Two ends of the same spectrum.

Or not, if you have your mothers name AND you don’t change your name on marriage.

It makes no difference whether or how far you can trace your name back via the male line. Did your name come to you via a man or not? Yes / no? That’s your answer.

Update: Four wedding anniversary cards received (gratefully) although every single one addressed Mr and Mrs his initial surname. My mum, bless her, took the brunt of my frowning and hers, which arrived later, is first name and first name, perfect! 😊.

My point (and quiet rage) was that I chose to take his surname. I like that as a family we all have the same family name. He probably would have taken mine too but his is prettier in both our opinions. Whether or not a person chooses to take another persons name on joining as a family is not the issue for me.

What drives me mad is assigning me a name I didn’t choose by giving us both his initial and the use of the title Mrs. These are things I didn’t choose and they know that, but continue to assign to me because of some superior belief that this is the ‘right’ thing to do now I’m married.

I’m not obsessed with this, I have plenty of other things to care about as well, but I think it’s a tip of the iceberg thing. Once you stop respecting my wishes out of ‘propriety’ I think it’s a slippery slope and I don’t like where it ends up.

By the way, I’m not saying that my decision to take my husband’s name was a feminist decision. It was not. It was a decision taken regardless of that. But having my father’s name growing up never felt feminist either. I always wondered why I didn’t get my name from my mum.

@looluu

Well you could equally ask why is the expectation still that children generally get their father’s name.

As I say, it’s the same tradition, just the other end of it.

The tradition of wives taking their husbands’ names and then their children getting the husband’s name too, are clearly one and the same tradition. You are born into it, or you may marry into it. Two ends of the same spectrum.

Or not, if you have your mothers name AND you don’t change your name on marriage.

It makes no difference whether or how far you can trace your name back via the male line. Did your name come to you via a man or not? Yes / no? That’s your answer.

You've said that, yes, but you're wrong. One is keeping a woman's name, one is taking a man's, thus they are not and cannot be part of the same spectrum.

My name came to me via my parents, it was held by both of them and as is traditional in the UK, I was given my mother's surname which she took through marrying my father. So that part of it was patriarchal, but I don't actually know whether it came originally from a woman or whether at any point it's been passed only through a woman.

So once again, like it or not, it's a comparison between a name a woman knows she has only acquired through patriarchal custom and a name most women cannot say whether they only acquired through patriarchal custom or whether it has also come to them through women ancestors. These things are different. That is the answer.

Discussions above have got me thinking how interesting it would be to go back through my family tree and attempt to work our what my family name would be if my forebears hadn’t taken their husbands family name...
might report back later!

@ottermadness It would be interesting. Do it! I’m west African and, prior to colonialism, we didn’t have last names in the current western sense. It’s a relatively recent tradition, so the origins of mine are fairly easy to trace and it’s actually a pretty even split re matriarchal and patriarchal lineage (although as I’ve explained before, I don’t think that’s massively relevant, either way).

It’s also not traditional for women to change their last names upon marriage where I’m from. Which, aside from my shouty feminism, is probably why I find the whole custom odd. For me it is neither rational nor traditional. The ‘his initial’ thing is next level weirdness from my perspective.

Zombie - but what you say makes no sense. Your mother took your father’s name due to patriarchal custom. Then you took your name through the exact same patriarchal custom.

Yes that name may potentially have been passed along by a woman potentially somewhere along the line. But you could say that about your husband’s name. Maybe he took it from his mum?

The difference here is that I know my mother took her name via patriarchy when she married. I was therefore born with a patriarchal name. Now I have another one from my husband. I don’t pretend otherwise. But I don’t pretend my previous name want patriarchal either when it obviously was. It is what it is. I was always aware of this, even as a young child.

I had no choice about having my father’s name. I didn’t even get on with him, yet I was stuck with it nevertheless. When it came to my husband, I chose to take his name because that was what I wanted to do. I wanted to share his name. I wanted that connection, if you like. I wanted us both to share the name of any children we may have. It was a gesture of commitment and respect to my husband and I can acknowledge that.

I know full well that someone will come on now and say the inevitable “well who didn’t he change his name to yours to show commitment and respect then, eh eh?” Well he does obviously, but in other ways. Every couple relates in different ways and there’s not much anyone else can do about it.

I am not a fan... in any case, I have kept my name and remain Ms. O. Orangina, not Mrs Hisname.

It was very amusing though, as once I had ordered something to be delivered to the PILs house for us when we went to stay, and the delivery van duly turned up with a package addressed to Ms. O. Orangina and FIL had no idea who it was and so sent it back.....! In his mind, I was Mrs Hisname and that was that. No identity of my own any more (they are super old fashioned)...

[massive eyeroll...]

Wouldn’t/doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Can’t say I’ve ever noticed if we’ve ever received a letter addressed in that way. I too was taught that is the proper way to address an envelope, not that I do but certainly wouldn’t be offended to receive one.

Looluu - my first name is French in origin......it doesn’t make me French.

My last name came from my father.....it doesn’t mean it is ‘his’ name. When my parents gave my name to me - my full name - it became mine.

The origin of my name is unimportant to me, the fact that it is MY name is extremely important to me.

Incidentally if my dh had wanted to change his name to mine I wouldn’t have liked it, he has a perfectly good name that is his....hands off mine!

@looluu

Zombie - but what you say makes no sense. Your mother took your father’s name due to patriarchal custom. Then you took your name through the exact same patriarchal custom.

Yes that name may potentially have been passed along by a woman potentially somewhere along the line. But you could say that about your husband’s name. Maybe he took it from his mum?

The difference here is that I know my mother took her name via patriarchy when she married. I was therefore born with a patriarchal name. Now I have another one from my husband. I don’t pretend otherwise. But I don’t pretend my previous name want patriarchal either when it obviously was. It is what it is. I was always aware of this, even as a young child.

I had no choice about having my father’s name. I didn’t even get on with him, yet I was stuck with it nevertheless. When it came to my husband, I chose to take his name because that was what I wanted to do. I wanted to share his name. I wanted that connection, if you like. I wanted us both to share the name of any children we may have. It was a gesture of commitment and respect to my husband and I can acknowledge that.

I know full well that someone will come on now and say the inevitable “well who didn’t he change his name to yours to show commitment and respect then, eh eh?” Well he does obviously, but in other ways. Every couple relates in different ways and there’s not much anyone else can do about it.

Your problem louluu is that you insist on pretending two things that are objectively not the same thing, actually are. This means the conclusions you draw are going to keep being wrong.

Even if my husband's name had been passed solely through the matriarchal line, me taking it would still be an entirely patriarchal decision because it would be changing a woman's name for a man's, a decision I'd be making because of patriarchal tradition. And I would know this for certain. Whereas I do not know that I have my birth name solely through patriarchy: I don't know the origins of it nor whether it passed through the female line. This means the two things are not the same. This is not a matter of opinion. It's also a poor argument even if a woman did know her surname was solely patriarchal, because even then she'd be swapping a woman's name for a man's.

Your last two paragraphs are about how you feel, which is fine, but doesn't affect the facts.