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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Mr and Mrs his initial surname 🤬

425 replies

ottermadness · 26/06/2020 23:23

I just hate it, I’m not a Mrs and I have a name.

It’s nice that people remember to send anniversary cards though so I’m not going to be impolite.

AIBU that this gives me rage!?

OP posts:
Buggritbuggrit · 02/07/2020 10:55

@Destroyedpeople I’ve really never massively understood the fascination with genealogy, myself. This is possibly because I know mine rather well, but the whole ‘carrying on the family name’ thing has never resonated with me as a reason to do anything.

Also, your brother is a tit.

ZombieLizzieBennet · 02/07/2020 19:04

Your “fact” that some women may have inherited a name via a female line would only apply to very recent generations. It’s the tip of the iceberg. The only reason you keep bringing it up is because it’s your only way of undermining the impact of the patriarchal naming tradition in the UK.

You are completely wrong here louluu. There are centuries old surnames that started with women. There are documented instances of medieval married women not giving the child the father's name but instead choosing one to represent them, like Princess Matilda. Sometimes children born after the father died were given the mother's name.

This is all widely accepted as fact and was going on long, long before very recent generations. I genuinely hadn't realised you were labouring under this significant misapprehension. It explains a lot.

MulticolourMophead · 03/07/2020 02:14

@ZombieLizzieBennet I did part of my mum's family tree, and found a couple of instances where the female name was passed down. This is around the early 1700s

ZombieLizzieBennet · 03/07/2020 08:59

That's really interesting!

Meredithgrey1 · 04/07/2020 11:44

I really don't understand why women take men's names full stop.

I have the name my parents gave me and I am a Ms. I am not identified by the who I am or was married to. It would wipe out my identity as me. I can't believe women still identify themselves as mens' chattels in the 21st century.

I find this quite a patronising view. I changed my surname when I got married because I honestly do not mind, nor do I attach my identity to my name. I wanted the same surname as my DD (we got married while I was pregnant) and my husband does feel a connection to his name so I changed mine. If I'd minded, we'd have had a discussion and come to a different decision regarding our daughter's surname (probably double barrelled but it never came up).
If other people do see their identity as linked to their name, that's totally fine, but it's annoying when people assume that women who do change surnames are losing their identity and unthinkingly becoming chattel.

MulticolourMophead · 05/07/2020 02:50

@Meredithgrey1

I really don't understand why women take men's names full stop.

I have the name my parents gave me and I am a Ms. I am not identified by the who I am or was married to. It would wipe out my identity as me. I can't believe women still identify themselves as mens' chattels in the 21st century.

I find this quite a patronising view. I changed my surname when I got married because I honestly do not mind, nor do I attach my identity to my name. I wanted the same surname as my DD (we got married while I was pregnant) and my husband does feel a connection to his name so I changed mine. If I'd minded, we'd have had a discussion and come to a different decision regarding our daughter's surname (probably double barrelled but it never came up).
If other people do see their identity as linked to their name, that's totally fine, but it's annoying when people assume that women who do change surnames are losing their identity and unthinkingly becoming chattel.

You reckon it's patronising.

But the thing is, you haven't grown up in a vacuum. You've grown up in a society that expects women to change their names. So, of course it's easier for you to feel that changing your name isn't a big deal, the expectation that you, as a woman, will change your name is already there in your subconscious.

As you said, you had other options, but the expectation in Anglo-Saxon societies is that women change their names on marriage. It's so prevalent in our society that in order to do nothing, ie not change our names, we still have to do something ie shout out loud that we don't want to change.

If I had married my ex soon after we first met, I'd have probably changed my name. Changing your name was virtually automatic in the 1980s. So I'm glad I didn't, that I had time to reflect and come to my own opinion, and not society's opinion.

Meredithgrey1 · 05/07/2020 06:38

So I'm glad I didn't, that I had time to reflect and come to my own opinion, and not society's opinion.

I appreciate what you're saying, but what I don't like is the idea that if someone comes to a decision that reflects society's opinion, it can't really be their own decision. Personally, I don't really get it when people say their name is part of their identity - I'm not saying they shouldn't feel like that, just that I really don't. My surname is just a thing I have to have, the only thing that mattered about it was that I wanted it to be the same as my daughter's. I almost changed my surname without getting married, the only reason I didn't was because we decided we would get married, but I'd have changed it no problem. Obviously I could have given DD my previous surname but it mattered to DH too and he is someone who feels his name is part of his identity, so in our relationship it made sense to do it this way.
And I don't like that I can't say that without the patronising response of "aww poor brainwashed woman, doesn't even know what she thinks. If only she'd thought about it properly like I did and come to her own decision".

Aneley · 05/07/2020 07:40

My pet peeve too. I also have an education-gained title which I obviously don't use in personal correspondence but when I get those cards where my name is not even mentioned and my existence is brought down to 'wife of XY' my blood boils.

Marchitectmummy · 05/07/2020 07:52

Are the cards from your husbands relatives? I suspect if so it's just short hand. I'm not sure my husbands relatives even know whether I have taken or kept his name.

Personally I couldnt careless. A name on an envelope doesnt give me an sense of identity one way or other.

howaboutchocolate · 05/07/2020 07:59

YANBU. I hate it.

And all of the women who are brainwashed into thinking it's fine and not something to get annoyed about - how would you/your husband feel about your husband being addressed as Mr your initial your surname? That seems like an odd concept, because we still live in a misogynistic society where men are the default.

ZombieLizzieBennet · 05/07/2020 08:17

@Marchitectmummy

Are the cards from your husbands relatives? I suspect if so it's just short hand. I'm not sure my husbands relatives even know whether I have taken or kept his name.

Personally I couldnt careless. A name on an envelope doesnt give me an sense of identity one way or other.

Yet it isn't the shortest form of address they could've used, so the shorthand seems unlikely. Mr and Mrs Smith takes less time and space to write than Mr and Mrs John Smith.
moj1to · 05/07/2020 10:19

Up to the 1500s, thIs issue of keeping / changing your name in marriage didn’t even exist because it was the norm for women to have no surname at all on marriage! They were simply, “Jane, wife of John.” Confused

Despite the fact that examples of women retaining their names on marriage since then do exist, they are very much few and far between in the broader context. Hence, the fact that it is still an issue women are confronted with today - this is the direct “hangover” of centuries of rigid tradition. If it were otherwise, in 2020, we would be seeing 50% of men changing their names to their wives’ names and we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. Grin

In fact, it was only the 1920s that saw the first ever case of a woman succeeding via a historic court battle to obtain a passport in her (non-married) name!

It was only in Scotland that certain matrilineal names had any consistency of significance.

Autumnchill · 05/07/2020 10:39

I left M&S Bank last year as I set up the joint account, put my name first on the application etc but every month they would text my husband to tell him the gift card had been credited £10 (part of switch promotion). All paperwork was addressed to him first.

When I was leaving they asked me why and so I politely told them that in this day and age to assume the man did the finances was extremely outdated and when he hadn't done a single thing in setting up the account or managing it, it made no sense that they reverted to him being primary contact.

Buggritbuggrit · 05/07/2020 10:55

@Meredithgrey1 But, you see how that’s very much in line with what @MulticolourMophead is saying here?

But the thing is, you haven't grown up in a vacuum. You've grown up in a society that expects women to change their names. So, of course it's easier for you to feel that changing your name isn't a big deal, the expectation that you, as a woman, will change your name is already there in your subconscious

You didn’t feel strongly about or identify with your last name, but your DH did/does. This is common amongst women in this country and there’s a reason for it.

moj1to · 05/07/2020 11:57

“You didn’t feel strongly about or identify with your last name, but your DH did/does. This is common amongst women in this country and there’s a reason for it”

Yes of course. It’s rooted in the fact women are generally born with the name from their father’s side (rather than inheriting the mother’s name) in the first place. So from day one, this reality becomes internalised to the extent that most women don’t even question it. If the proportions of women inheriting their mother’s or father’s name at birth was 50/50, then the proportion changing their names on marriage would be much closer to 50/50 too. As it is, surnames are predominantly patriarchal at birth with obvious implications for the decisions women tend to make at the point of marriage.

As it is now becoming more the norm in the modern day for women to inherit their mother’s name or a double-barrelled name, we are seeing a concomitant “loosening” or decrease in women feeling obliged to name-change in marriage. The two are inexorably linked.

Buggritbuggrit · 05/07/2020 13:41

@moj1to Exactly, which is why it is vanishingly rare to hear a man (from any culture) or a woman from Iran/Italy/France/Greece/Ethiopia/Malaysia/Korea/insert other country where women don’t take their husband’s names, say that their last name is unimportant to them, or that they didn’t like it and were keen to change it for whatever reason. Yet, it’s a common sentiment amongst women in the UK and the US.

I think everyone’s feelings about their own names are valid, but also think that we need to be willing to examine the reasons we hold the positions that we do.

moj1to · 05/07/2020 15:21

The only thing I would say, is that in many countries where women don’t take the husband’s name, it actually makes no difference whatsoever in terms of eroding the “name patriarchy.” In fact it can strengthen the patriarchy. This is because it’s still the father’s name that gets handed to the children regardless. So the mother’s name is immaterial in this sense and it’s like she is the “outsider” name-wise.

For instance, I have friends from certain Middle Eastern countries who had to go to quite some lengths to be allowed to change their names to their husbands. For them, this is seen as progressive or “Western” and more liberal. This is because of the tradition in these countries that you are born with your father’s name and you are defined by it for life. But what is important is that, as a female, you have no chance to pass it on. This is the key. This is the patriarchy at work! Nor do you have any option to share the name of the children you gave birth to.

So while I totally understand why women not wanting to change their names in marriage can be seen as more feminist from a UK perspective, when you think about it, the only way to achieve any lasting change (beyond yourself) is to pass on your name (Not the DH’s) to your children.

Otherwise, whether you change your name or not, the children will still internalise, from day one, that they inherited their name from the father. This becomes their “internalised model” - the very reason we are not “born into a vacuum”- and so on and so on. Nothing material has actually changed.

I think, as women, we have to understand that the inequality inherent in surnames doesn’t start with the decision to name change on marriage. If you inherited your father’s name at birth (whether your mother shared it or not), then you were, unwittingly, born into that inequality from day one. We have to understand this.

Even if you bypass tradition and choose not to change your name on marriage later in life, that name will still die with you. The more important choice if you want lasting and meaningful change, is to bypass the the expectation that your children will take your DH’s name. This is the fundamental tradition that shapes the inequality and it all stems from there.

When we have a society in which children are equally likely to be born with their mother’s name as they are their father’s, that is when the real shift will have occurred. We’re not there yet because even though many women are not name-changing, far less are insisting it is their name that gets carried over to the children.

Buggritbuggrit · 05/07/2020 16:23

@moj1to I totally agree re succession. It’s not my place to tell women what they should or shouldn’t do, but I really hope that the days of automatically giving a child their father’s last name are drawing to a close.

I will also point out (like I said earlier in the thread) that last names in the western sense are a very recent development for a lot of the world. Where I’m from, they didn’t exist until colonialism. It’s a recent innovation and, looking at how last names have evolved and been handed down over the handful of generations that have had them, generally not wholly patriarchal. From conversations with friends and acquaintances from other African countries, their histories are similar. I can’t speak definitively about the rest of the world, but centuries of patriarchal naming traditions isn’t necessarily the global norm (not that you said it was).

moj1to · 05/07/2020 18:24

Sure, I mean if you come from somewhere where there isn’t a patriarchal naming tradition, then it would obviously strike you as completely bizarre to change your name on marriage.

But if you grow up knowing that the only reason you were given your surname was because that was your dad’s name (regardless of whether your mum also shares it or not) and that this is the societal norm, then obviously that will become your internalised model. It doesn’t really matter how far you can trace things back. You got your dad’s name, not your mum’s - ok, enough said, in a sense. Says it all about society, right there. So even if you later decide not to change your name, it’s: still a “thing” in the sense it’s something you have to reject or deal with, in a way men don’t.

Buggritbuggrit · 05/07/2020 20:35

I don’t think we’re disagreeing on anything.

MulticolourMophead · 05/07/2020 20:47

[quote Buggritbuggrit]@moj1to Exactly, which is why it is vanishingly rare to hear a man (from any culture) or a woman from Iran/Italy/France/Greece/Ethiopia/Malaysia/Korea/insert other country where women don’t take their husband’s names, say that their last name is unimportant to them, or that they didn’t like it and were keen to change it for whatever reason. Yet, it’s a common sentiment amongst women in the UK and the US.

I think everyone’s feelings about their own names are valid, but also think that we need to be willing to examine the reasons we hold the positions that we do.[/quote]
And Canada, Australia, NZ...

Basically, it's an Anglo-Saxon inheritance, exported from this country to others. It's time we took a look, and don't just fall into the trap of changing names automatically. If women want to change, then fine, but they should know they are choosing to do so within the framework of society's expectations.

ottermadness · 05/07/2020 22:55

What do we think about Scandinavian systems? I don’t know the detail but can’t decide if I think it’s divisive or empowering 🤷🏻‍♀️

OP posts:
Willyoujustbequiet · 06/07/2020 18:42

Louluu its not about keeping a father's name, its about keeping your own birth name!. Names dont belong more to men than to woman.

Of course changing on marriage is perpetuating the patriarchy. A woman keeping her own name on marriage is clearly less patriarchal. I have no clue how anyone could argue anything else. Zombie and others are patently correct.

happymummy12345 · 06/07/2020 21:01

I think it depends on who the card is addressed to. If it was just to me then I'd expect Mrs my initial husbands surname. However if it was to both of us as a couple then I'd get annoyed if people don't address us as Mr and Mrs husbands initial our surname.
I'm proud to be a Mrs and have my husbands name, I hate it if I'm referred to as Ms instead of Mrs. And for me I always knew when I got married I'd take my husbands name.
Also to me the traditional correct formal way to address a married couple who share the same name is Mr and Mrs husbands initial joint surname.

ottermadness · 07/07/2020 14:34

But what if the ‘Mrs’ is a Dr @happymummy12345?

OP posts:
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