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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Mr and Mrs his initial surname 🤬

425 replies

ottermadness · 26/06/2020 23:23

I just hate it, I’m not a Mrs and I have a name.

It’s nice that people remember to send anniversary cards though so I’m not going to be impolite.

AIBU that this gives me rage!?

OP posts:
ZombieLizzieBennet · 01/07/2020 21:19

No, the things I am saying are facts louluu. They aren't affected by either of our feelings, and they would be no less true if I denied them as you do. They exist outside of your feelings, mine and anyone else's (and really, MN is not exactly fertile pomo territory).

It is a fact that a woman taking her husband's name on marriage is an entirely patriarchal tradition. It is fact that some surnames come from women originally, that some mothers have passed surnames to their children and that most people in the UK won't be able to trace their lineage back to the introduction of surnames so won't know either way if there has been any female transmission. This means most of the time it's a decision between a definitely patriarchal name and one that isn't definitely patriarchal (which is distinct from one where patriarchy is entirely absent- learn the distinction). The latter then is by definition the less patriarchal decision. It's also a fact that if a woman has a name, it's a woman's name, again by definition.

If you think people telling you you're strawmanning is a cliché, it probably seems like that to you because you do it a lot. But as nobody suggested patriarchy only happened when a woman took her husband's name, that means you were strawmanning when you said that. Again, this is a fact. The term strawman has a dictionary definition.

People making different decisions in different contexts is irrelevant to the issue of whether a particular decision is more patriarchal than another. The problem is that you're conflating more patriarchal and unjustified. Similarly, your point about a rape victim is further moving of the goalposts, because more feminist and more patriarchal aren't necessarily synonymous. You also don't appear to comprehend the distinction between telling someone a decision they made is wrong and telling them a claim they made about something independently verifiable is wrong.

Buggritbuggrit · 01/07/2020 21:39

@looluu Actually, if you actually read my comments, you’ll find I’ve done no such thing. You, on the other hand, have repeatedly told us that we’re wrong because you’re right. Many many times. You’ve also contradicted yourself multiple times. I’ve provided examples.

Where is your self awareness?

And, regardless of when you realised it, you started the debate, repeated yourself multiple times and then said ‘Why do you need to cling to this insistence that one tradition have to be “more” patriarchal than another? Does it make you to feel better - why? What does it achieve? I would put those questions to yourself.’

That is mad. I’m going to keep repeating it until you acknowledge how mad it is, because you don’t seem to.

looluu · 01/07/2020 21:44

Based on your “facts” that names are not really patriarchal because somewhere across the centuries a woman may have got a look in for two seconds, what if your DH has his mothers name. Is that ok?

No, because it’s all bollocks.

Bloody hell, I don’t even declare myself as a feminist but zim steadying to think I must be. Even I don’t delude myself for one second about the impact of the patriarchal name tradition on all our lives. What will you be telling me next - we can’t be sure about the impact of misogyny on society because, after all, some women hate men too. Yes that works.

No you didn’t say patriarchy only happens when a woman takes her husband’s name. What you did say through, was that I’m not allowed to think that the inherent patriarchy in birth names could potentially be more important than this for some women. So not strawmanning from the dictionary. Just responding to your “facts”.

I am very capable of separating facts from feelings because I am not 5.

But your facts are not my facts. Your facts are meaningless to me and have no bearing on my life.

looluu · 01/07/2020 21:51

Because Bugg - You were the one insisting that birth names couldn’t be patriarchal because “it’s my name.” I was saying I think they can be your name and patriarchal because the two are not mutually exclusive, and I tried to explain to you that’s how I identify with mine. So in this context, I am likely to approach / perceive the marriage name-changing issue differently to you.

Here’s another cliche to add to “strawman” - “gaslighting.” It’s in the dictionary too.

Buggritbuggrit · 01/07/2020 22:03

@looluu Once again, if you read my comments, you’ll see that I never, at any point, stated what you should believe. And I acknowledged that you might approach things in a different way to me. I was quite explicit about this.

And, I will repeat, you, on the other hand, have repeatedly told us that we’re wrong because you’re right. Many many times. You’ve also contradicted yourself multiple times. I’ve provided examples.

And AGAIN that has nothing to do with the fact that you started the debate, repeated yourself multiple times and then said ‘Why do you need to cling to this insistence that one tradition have to be “more” patriarchal than another? Does it make you to feel better - why? What does it achieve? I would put those questions to yourself.’ That is mad.

You can seek to ignore what I’ve said, I’ll just repeat it.

If anyone is trying to pretend that what has happened hasn’t happened, gaslight or build straw men, it is you. Why you think I’ll suddenly forget what you’ve said when it’s written in black and white is truly beyond me. So, again, what is wrong with you?

looluu · 01/07/2020 22:16

I know I said that, I just typed it. Why do you keep telling me.

I ask myself those questions. Most people do. If I get annoyed by a comment on my marriage, I ask myself why. Chances are, it’s touched a nerve.

I haven’t told anyone to do anything. I’ve tried tried to explain my reasons for decisions I have made in the context of my life. Only to be dismissed by Zombie as it’s not “fact.” Only she knows the facts.

Well hold to your facts by all means to but all I can say is if you were in my street proclaiming your facts, I’d shut the curtains.

Buggritbuggrit · 01/07/2020 22:29

@looluu I keep saying it because, until now, you haven’t acknowledged it. If you start a debate and bang on about it, asking the other person why they are talking about the subject that you brought up is insane.

And you STILL haven’t acknowledged that you have contradicted yourself multiple times and then had the insane effrontery to accuse other people of gaslighting.

Nobody has questioned your decisions at any point. I don’t care what you do in your marriage. What we have done is respond to statements like these:

‘The irony on these threads that some people just can’t grasp, is that unless you inherited your name from your mother, you do in fact have a name that has been given to you via a patriarchal line.‘

‘... it’s nonsense to claim that your name is any less patriarchal than a woman taking her husband’s name.’

‘Even more bizarre, are those who keep their own name because of “feminism,” but then give their kids the DH’s name.’

‘In my view, those who don’t / can’t accept that whether they have a name that comes from their father or husband, they are adhering to the exactly same system, that are the “indoctrinated” ones.’

‘It doesn’t actually matter how strongly you identify with your birth name (or not). That’s just you and, in itself, makes no difference.’

looluu · 01/07/2020 22:39

Shoot me now!

You are the one who told me I was making statements about the entire planet. Confused Even though I’m parochial.

I have said several times that it’s a personal issue which will attract a myriad of views , so probably we should agree to disagree. But nooo ...

Anyway I’m off to start a new thread now... about women on their fourth husband and what to do about the patriarchy (but only in Spain).

Buggritbuggrit · 01/07/2020 22:47

@looluu Shoot you now because I’ve quoted you to yourself and shown that you are a massive hypocrite?

You said it was personal and that women should do what they want, without acknowledging (as you still are not) the multiple statements that you have made to the contrary.

‘But you said I was parochial’ is a bizarre non sequitur. I said you were parochial because you were being parochial. What does that have to do with you contradicting yourself? Being called parochial makes it impossible for you to keep your points straight or be coherent? You poor thing.

looluu · 01/07/2020 22:58

What are you actually on about now?

Buggritbuggrit · 01/07/2020 23:04

@looluu The exact same thing as I was on about previously. It is not unclear.

Alsohuman · 01/07/2020 23:07

Bloody hell you two. You’ve both got too much time on your hands.

Buggritbuggrit · 01/07/2020 23:13

@alsohuman It’s rather got to the stage where I’m just intrigued as to what she will say next, as I’ve never encountered anyone like this before.

But you make a fair point. Grin

YouAreTheEggManIAmTheWalrus · 01/07/2020 23:15

Enter into an old-fashioned, antiquated last-form-of-legal-slavery..thats what you get! Can’t have it all ways!

JaniceWebster · 01/07/2020 23:28

legal slavery? really? Confused

Sunshineeeee · 01/07/2020 23:37

Me and my husband ironically have the last surname so I've never had to deal with this. I'm not sure how I would feel if it were different. I'd probably get a little irritated but I think rage is a bit extreme.

ZombieLizzieBennet · 02/07/2020 07:04

@looluu

Based on your “facts” that names are not really patriarchal because somewhere across the centuries a woman may have got a look in for two seconds, what if your DH has his mothers name. Is that ok?

No, because it’s all bollocks.

Bloody hell, I don’t even declare myself as a feminist but zim steadying to think I must be. Even I don’t delude myself for one second about the impact of the patriarchal name tradition on all our lives. What will you be telling me next - we can’t be sure about the impact of misogyny on society because, after all, some women hate men too. Yes that works.

No you didn’t say patriarchy only happens when a woman takes her husband’s name. What you did say through, was that I’m not allowed to think that the inherent patriarchy in birth names could potentially be more important than this for some women. So not strawmanning from the dictionary. Just responding to your “facts”.

I am very capable of separating facts from feelings because I am not 5.

But your facts are not my facts. Your facts are meaningless to me and have no bearing on my life.

You've shown no evidence of being capable of separating fact from feeling and you continue that inability here. Because guess what, you don't get to have your own facts. That isn't how facts work.

And on that point, you're also wrong in claiming I said you weren't allowed to think anything. That's a ludicrous suggestion, because people can think whatever they want. This again means you were straw manning. As you have repeatedly. This too, is a fact. Your choices are that you can agree with that or you can be wrong. Again.

looluu · 02/07/2020 07:27

“Your choices are that you can agree with that or you can be wrong. Again.”

What you actually mean there is that I can agree with YOU or be wrong..

Just listen to yourself. The arrogance is astonishing -

Your “facts” -

The act / tradition of wives taking their husband’s name in marriage is more patriarchal than the system of babies taking their father’s name by default.

No. Wrong. Your opinion.

The handing down of women’s names has been significant within the patriarchal naming tradition in the UK over the centuries, to the extent we can’t be sure if our names even come to us via patriarchal lines.

No. Utter tosh. Your opinion.

Anyway, I’m not having another day of “facts” and strawmen. This is insane.

ZombieLizzieBennet · 02/07/2020 07:33

You can't credibly accuse anyone else of arrogance when you think facts are negotiable and matter less than your feelings. And you continue with it here, because it is the reality that most people in the UK can't trace their lineage reliably enough to know whether their surname only arrived at them via males. The use of the term significant was added by you, and is a value judgement. What's factual is the possibility being existent.

I'm pleased to hear we won't have another day of straw manning though. I do hope you actually manage to stay on the point.

ComeBy · 02/07/2020 08:38

The issue, here and now, is that by default women are expected to change their names and men are not expected to have to do that.

The act of changing your name or not is therefore the crux of the current feminist decision.

If you choose not to change your name the next decision is your own baby’s name. If you did not change your name the expected norm is that your baby takes the father’s surname. So that is the next current feminist decision.

(If the baby’s father changed his name to yours this decision is avoided, obv).

The whole patriarchy ancestry thing is so chicken and egg and irrelevant. We can do nothing about it but observe and learn.

The situation NOW, who changes the name by which they are known to the world, is our decision.

Men are frequently very unwilling even to consider changing their name. Why is that?

Even when a woman double barrels, adds his name to hers, he does not usually make the matching reciprocal change. Why is that?

looluu · 02/07/2020 08:53

Your “fact” that some women may have inherited a name via a female line would only apply to very recent generations. It’s the tip of the iceberg. The only reason you keep bringing it up is because it’s your only way of undermining the impact of the patriarchal naming tradition in the UK.

The “fact” is, as I’ve repeatedly said, is that patriarchy exists. Have you noticed? The main transmission of this system of oppression has been through hereditary lineage and the male naming tradition.

So when you say “oh we don’t know if our names are patriarchal because we haven’t traced them,” this does come across as whataboutery and spectacularly missing the point. It’s also disingenuous because it’s distorting the fact of an oppressive system.

As I asked, would you argue we can’t be sure that the gender pay gap exists because some women earn more than men. Would you argue male on female violence is not a huge structural inequality in our society because some women may have attacked men?

That would be ridiculous wouldn’t it? Yes it’s a “fact” that some women have attacked men, but it should not detract from the wider picture if inequality. Yes it’s a “fact” that some Women may earn more than men, but it shouldn’t detract from the wider system of inequality. It may be a fact that sometimes, in more recent history, a female name has carried to children (eg single parent families or cohabiting couples) - but this should not detract from the structural inequality that has persisted for centuries.

When you look at an individual action, for instance, a woman taking her husband’s name in marriage, you have to look at it, not in isolation, but in the context of the wider historical structure and how it persists / manifests to this day.

The point of women taking their husband’s names, through history was, above all, to perpetrate the male line through offspring, to ensure that’s his name / legacy lives on, etc etc. This is still largely happening today.

All I’ve tried to argue is that is silly to look at one act, such as women taking their husband’s names or not, without looking at underlying structures. What perpetrates the patriarchy and all that comes with it is the transmission of names via male lines, regardless of what women do with their surnames. You can take any view you like on name-changing or not, but until it ceases to be default for children to inherit the father’s name, equality will not be achieved. So if you want equality, you have to accept that it does matter whose name a child inherits. As women. When we talk about “our name” the impact of the patriarchy need to be considered because it probably determined the name we cane into the world with, as well as any man’s name we may or may not change it to.

What I did or didn’t do in terms if my own relationship doesn’t really matter. This is where “feelings” come into it. I been honest that I don’t identify as a feminist in the way expressed on here. Yet that doesn’t mean I don’t understand structural inequalities and the feminist cause. But for me, the “facts” are the structural system. This system defines the very decisions we, as women, are required take, let alone what we decide. Some countries don’t allow women to change their names on marriage. Not because they are less patriarchal, but because women are incidental and the children get the male name anyway. We have experience if such a tradition this within our family.

So when I get frustrated with women who have so much to say about women who change their names in marriage, it’s not because I think they are wrong, as such. I just see everything as interconnected and underpinned by patriarchy anyway, so looking at acts in isolation makes no sense.

Destroyedpeople · 02/07/2020 09:17

I honestly think that on general and not just with this issue, that too much store is set by surnames.

They are really not that important. It makes me laugh when people go on about 'carrying on the name' when their name is something like Smith or Evans.

Or when people go on about tracing their family tree but forget the other 15 great grandparents that weRe not called 'smith ' or whatever.

It's just a suffix that we need in a legal sense.

Having said that I did not change my name which really annoyed my brother fir some reason as 'he was the one to carry on the name'....and I 'had no right to use it'.

ComeBy · 02/07/2020 09:52

OMG, DestroyedPeople your brother! But it does demonstrate the degree of entitlement that men attach to names, their view of themselves, not women, as the backbone of dynasties, and the reason so many men will not entertain the idea that THEY might be the one to change their name on marriage or not pass their own name to their child.

Once men and women have an equal relationship wrt the currency of their names, THEN it will cease to be a feminist issue.

We can change what happens from now on, not what happened behind us.

looluu · 02/07/2020 10:12

Yes I agree. Women can only change what happens from now on. But change will only come about if those women who do not change their names in marriage, also make sure the children inherit their names. There’s still a long way to go in this respect because it’s hard to shift ingrained attitudes that have persisted for centuries.

The thing is, I don’t actually believe the alternative outcome will be any better than what we have at present, which is why I did the traditional thing and my children have DH name as well. But that’s me - I recognise other women feel very differently and I understand why they would feel like that..

Buggritbuggrit · 02/07/2020 10:52

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