Inappropriate BIL behavior?

[confusedm1]

Long story here. I don’t have anyone else to get advice from about this so hoping MN can give me some. I’m ready to be told IABU. I’ve had some postnatal anxiety so I’m not sure if I’m being unnecessarily worried.

Parent in-laws live 10 hours away. BIL lives in a small flat very close to them, visits most days, he basically lives there half the time. He’s middle-age, has social anxiety, doesn’t work or see any friends or extended family, no girlfriend. From what I can gather he spends a lot of time on the internet and sees his parents and that’s about it. He’s had drug problems in the past and frequently has suicidal thoughts. Until below I thought he was a nice, quiet man who had a rough life. Now I don’t no what to think.

I’m a FTM to a 2 year old DD, who is also the family’s 1st GC. Me and DH visited in-laws before lockdown.
BILs actions towards DD made me uncomfortable straight away. He would constantly touch her face, I mean all the time and pat her head like a dog. He would lie on the floor so DD could climb him. Try to tickle her at the time. He was way more involved than any other family member. But I put it down to me being over protective.
He would also put food on her highchair but not stuff I would normally give her so I would say “please don’t give her that” and he would say “no she’s fine.” I also asked him not to touch her face all the time he said “yes I can.” He would stay overnight at the in-laws, sleep on the sofa. I think this was so he could be there when she got up in the morning. If she took a tumble he would jump in and grab her to console her, before me or DH had a chance to. It’s almost like he wants to be her parent.
It was odd but I put all this down to him never having much interaction with baby’s, this was his first time seeing her and my anxiety.

So then on the last night we were there, I was getting her bath ready at night. BIL has just had a shower, again he did this sometimes (no Idea why but everyone thought it was normal). My FIL took DD into there bedroom, where BIL was. I heard her crying so went in. My heart fell out of my body at this point. DD was crawling up BILs body who was only wearing a towel and not covering himself very well. FIL grabbed DD, said “I’ll take her downstairs” and pretty much ran out. I think he realised it looked doughy. I should have had words with him then about it but I didn’t and left the room.

I told DH everything and my feelings about BIL but we go round and round. Ending in “so basically your saying my brothers a peado” NO but I cant ignore my feelings. DH agrees this is unacceptable behavior from BIL but to just leave it now and have words if anything else happens next time we visit. It could all be a misunderstanding. I have this bad feeling about BIL, I can’t explain it. I never had it before DD. A feeling of deep dread in my gut.

We plan to move soon (delayed by CV) to be near in-laws, they want to look after her while I’m a work which would be great and save money. But I’ll be worried constantly about BIL being there. Watching her alone while MIL pops to shop or something. I sway between thinking IABU and it’s good he wants to be so involved. Or I need to protect her and be cautious. I would feel absolutely terrible if anything happened, it’s every parents worst nightmare.

So WWYD and AIBU?

trust your gut

even reading it i was saying "no no no no no".

i am a mother, i would never leave my children with someone like this.

Your gut instinct is right about BIL because he is doing it right in front of you and that’s why you feel that something is off,child abusers abuse kids sometimes right in front of parents through play(it happened to me), but please don’t ignore your FIL in this,alarm bells should be going off when your FIL took your daughter to the room and then rushed downstairs with her,just don’t leave your daughter alone with your IL and make that clear to your husband,you don’t have to explain yourself to anyone,just say it’s your motherly insect.

Can you not move? Surely that would solve the issue

@GrumpyHoonMain

Give your head a wobble. You are accusing your husband’s entire family of being pedophiles over a 2 yo climbing excitedly over her uncle while he was wearing a towel; and her uncle doting on her. My DN at the same age insisted on my newlywed DH to change her nappy; is he a pedophile too for doing it?

I think you are jumping to far too many conclusions over what is essentially a first meeting with your in-laws. It’s inappropriate to even think about leaving your dd with them after just meeting them the once as they haven’t built up a relationship with her or you yet. You need to meet them again, keep an eye out, and then see how the interactions are — I bet he won’t be as interested meeting her a second or third time.

This sort of minimising terrifies me. What he did in the bedroom was massively inappropriate and screams red flags. Added together with other behaviour makes it worse.

@confusedm1 please ignore those who minimise inappropriate behaviour in this way. Your gut reacted for a reason. You’re not accusing the whole family. You saw many red flags and some seriously wrong behaviour.

Protect your DD.
Don’t move near them.

I don't think there's anything here to suggest BIL is paedophile - he's not behaving like one from my experience. In my experience, he's behaving like a child and is not a danger. However, because of that, I wouldn't trust him looking after my child. He wants to please her rather than parent her (giving her food she shouldn't have and stroking her). He seems to just want her to be happy rather than understanding safety or rules. Does he have learning difficulties?
I definitely think you should pay for childcare - relying on family members is a war zone and you can't prevent him being left alone with her. I don't think he's a paedophile based on what you've said but I don't think he's an appropriate caregiver either.

Do not move closer to them!! And trust your gut for the love of God. Seriously.

Bluemoooon Wed 24-Jun-20 20:21:38
Perhaps you could speak to FIL about it, just to see what his reaction is. To confirm the behaviour was as weird as it seemed to you.
.......
Yes, that is a good idea. However the op may find it embarrassing and dad in law - possibly - doesn't quite know what to think anyway. Op said he looked awkward and straight away took the little girl downstairs. Nevertheless, it is something to be considered.

I can't imagine being comfortable if my adult son was playing with a little girl just in a towel, or tickling her. A lot of people, including me, find tickling unpleasant. I would certainly have strong words with him about boundaries, it's just not on.

What is not normal about him having a shower?

What made your daughter cry out?

OP, your BIL sounds creepy as fuck and I would never EVER allow him anywhere near a child of mine. Or any child at all. Please don't leave her alone with him.
Trust your gut, you have it for a reason.

@confusedm1
Having worked in Children's Services I would say trust your gut as well. Obviously no one is saying to accuse your BIL of anything, but if you feel uncomfortable then please do not ignore it. Do not leave your child with parents in law if you feel you cannot trust them to keep your DD safe from potential harm. He may just be unusual at interacting with children as some say, but I have also worked with families where sexual abuse starts off very small and has an element of 'is this just normal to some families'. All I can say is, if anything ever happened (again, not saying it would!), you would be devastated you didn't trust your own instincts.

diddl Wed 24-Jun-20 20:50:15
Why did your FIL take your daughter into his bedroom where his half naked son was?
....
In fairness, he probably didn't know his son was in there half naked or his son could have come in afterwards.

I think I could get away with ILs not looking after her because the house isn't safe for a toddler and she loves nursery here. And since BILs been suicidal I could use that for not being alone with her (which would be the case anyway).
But I think eventually a situation would come up that I can't get around and I couldn't sit at work without being worried. What if in a few years DD tells me something that's happened? And I let it happen.

But also what if I'm completely wrong I'm taking my DD away from her GPs and extended family too. A much needed support system for DH and I. We have no one where we are. I don't even have an emergency contact for her other than us.
I know it's better to be safe than sorry though. This is hard.

I do think his behaviour is weird, you can never leave her unattended with him. And that includes leaving her in the care of others that might leave her unattended with him.

I have uncles, this would never have happened. One of my uncles lived with my grandparents when I was younger and was always fully dressed when we were around, if he wasn’t he’d lock his door. If we had a sleepover (with my other siblings) we’d stay up all night in the living room but sleep in separate rooms. We did have a close friendship too but boundaries are boundaries

This is awful. Read 'The Gift of Fear' book. Get DH to read it too. And get your police friend with social services experiences to have a chat with you both. Don't move to be near them. If he's a predator he will consistently and with great patience and motivation, work at moments of getting her on her own. He disregarded your requests TO YOUR FACE, and managed to have her clambering in his semi naked body within hours of meeting her. None of that is accidental - he's determined to do what he likes. His parents have no power to influence his behaviour, FIL knew it was wrong but only acted once he was aware you were watching. Tell DH paedophiles are always someone's son / brother - why is it impossible that it could be his? Yes it's very sad, but child abuse is very common, and in exactly these situations - doesn't he want to protect his daughter? Why does he think it's ok for BIL to ignore you? Never ever let her be alone with him, or the grandparents at their house.

I’m guessing your DH has just the one sibling, no sisters?

How long have you known BIL how does he interact with other children boys or girls.

Do People With children avoid being around him, I know you said he doesn’t travel to visit, or it is that he wouldn’t be a welcome visitor.

He’s dismissIve of any boundaries, Touching Her head and face.
The tickling sets alarm bells ringing for me, when the child says stop and they just carry on, they get away with inappropriate touching by pretending it’s just tickling and that the child likes it really, creepy behaviour.
Was is co incidence that BIL was having a shower around the time you were getting DD a bath ready?

What does MIL do whilst this stuff is happening?
I don’t think MIL is able to keep your DD safe.

Listen to your gut feeling, it’s there for a reason.
I grew up in kids homes and was abused many many times by different boys men and a couple of females too. I managed to escape from a few abusers too.
my gut feeling has never been wrong.
I had no one to keep me safe.
You will keep your DD safe, I hope that after chatting with your DH he will see that your DD should not be put at risk.

At the very least, BIL needs to be told that he can't undermine your parenting and do 'what he wants to'. That's boundary-trampling. But as said, I find it uncomfortable reading, and I wouldn't take the chance of childcare.

I’m another person piping in to say trust your instincts.

I don’t know a grow man who would stand in front a 2 year old girl, not his own in a towel. Don’t know a grandfather who would stay in the room with the child when he realized the son was not dressed.

I don’t trust either of them at all. This gave me chills.

Poor you. You’re in a horrible situation.

There are a few people on this thread who are defending your BIL’s behaviour, and indeed, it’s possible you might be wrong, and in fact, he’s innocent of any dark thoughts or intentions. So assuming he’s innocent (something you will never know for sure), you go ahead with the move, and your daughter’s child care is provided by your PIL. Can you imagine what your life will be like? You will be absolutely consumed with fear, doubt, anxiety, self-loathing, and suspicion, because you aren’t going to just suddenly forget your instincts about your BIL. Whether he’s innocent or not, the prospect of him being around your DD is now no longer an option, because either a) he will abuse her, or b) you will always be terrified he will abuse her. Both of these scenarios are absolutely unacceptable.

Don’t move there. You might be wrong about him, but you clearly know it’s worth making that error if you think there’s any chance it could save your daughter from hell. Her safety trumps all else. And hopefully, your DH will recover from the shock of hearing your suspicions, and be more receptive to an open discussion in the coming days. Several PP are writing him off, but he’s had a big shock - his initial reaction may not be an indication of his future conduct. Give him a chance to process what has happened. Best of luck to you.

But also what if I'm completely wrong I'm taking my DD away from her GPs and extended family too. A much needed support system for DH and I. We have no one where we are. I don't even have an emergency contact for her other than us.
I know it's better to be safe than sorry though. This is hard.

You're not taking her away. You're not allowing them unsupervised access. They can still have contact - supervised, and with them being very clear that the boundaries set by the parents will be adhered to, or DD will be removed.

We had absolutely nobody in terms of family for a support system and emergency contacts. It means you build them from your friends - from people who know your daughter, who know how to behave appropriately around children, and more importantly, you and your daughter are happy to entrust her wellbeing to them without you having to worry while she's out of your sight.

As other PP's have pointed out, children are more more likely, statistically, to be abused by family. It's easy to manipulate, and guilt-trip family members into allowing access and behaviours that you'd be running screaming to SS and police if it were anyone else.

This thread has been awful to read.
As namechange said "He disregarded your requests to your face." He's saying in front of your DD, and her parents. "You can't tell me what to do and I will do what I want."
This is what would concern me even more than the towel incident because he is declaring to all of you that his ideas come first and he need not acknowledge her parents wishes. So even if it is all innocent this is not on.
Everyone is acting as if that is normal. I think that because he has issues that both your DH and the PIL have got used to making allowances for him over the years and so they are making allowances for him now and not listening to you. They are so used to indulging him will they actually call him out on any inappropriate behaviour even it is innocent?. Your DH certainly seems to need a lot of convincing.
This means that you may need to have self belief in this - you may need to be the one to stand up and make sure that he has no access to DD and if it means "offending" him so be it. Better safe than sorry.

@NorthernIrishFeminist

To those posters who are getting indignant saying you're accusing bil of being a paedo we're not saying he is, we're saying he might be we're saying there is reason to be concerned, that abuse happens horrifyingly often and that protecting OPs DD is more important than not offending someone who openly ignored OPs boundaries wrt DD

This bears repeating.

BIL is showing some very inappropriate behaviour. It might just be awkwardness, but you simply can't take the chance. If the genie escapes the bottle, you can't put back in and pretend nothing ever happened.

I think the minimisers may not have come across grooming behaviour before, But I'm not the only one who posted here who has experience grooming and this behaviour is ringing alarm bells for me. I was lucky that I was never touched, but others weren't so lucky.

So, OP, it's worth asking about any Sarah's Law info, if it's available. But whether or not anything is revealed, then I'd still make sure your DD isn't alone with BIL/PIL. Your DD's safety has to come first.

Keep him away from your daughter! And do not leave your daughter with your inlaws either as they can't be trusted to keep an eye on him. You may be wrong, but if you aren't and something was to happen to your daughter, you would never forgive yourself!!

Trust yourself. Wishing you strength.

Could not read and run. Abusers have families. They are someone's son, husband, BIL, etc. I have an uncle who sadly is one. My grandparents would never admit to it and would alway make excuses.

Please protect your DD. Better safe than sorry.

I’d be more concerned with Your FIL who only took your daughter out once you came in the room,he was in the room before that and he is the one that placed her there ,your BIL might have issues with boundaries or may have mental health issues or maybe a pedo but your FIL is the one who took your daughter to the room,don’t be too trusting with your FIL.