Not welcome in sister house

[mamascorpio]

I rang my sister today and she has informed me that I am no longer welcome in her home.

My BIL fell out with me in Feb this year after they went through a separation.

I spoke to their Eldest daughter during the separation and advised that if either mum or Dad tried to talk to them about what was going on just to say it was none of her business. Both of them were using eldest daughter 13 as a means of communicating what had gone wrong.

Bil lost it when the eldest daughter told him what I had said. He hasn't spoken to me since, has actively ignored me when I have walked past to go into the house etc.

They reconciled after a few weeks, then Bil decided that I needed to apologise for what I said to Eldest daughter and also for the fact that years before I had mentioned that 1 in 5 children are not the biological child of their father. bIL developed complete paranoia over this and decided that I was trying to tell him that one of his children isn't his. Nonsense.

Further he is also angry apparently that i wasn't happy when my sister and he reconciled.

They had an argument after a night out, he was verbally abusing to my sister, she and 4 of the children came and stayed in my house overnight then he left the house a few days later.

So he had been ignoring me for months, I have simply not paid any attention to the issue although it was annoying on the basis that he was being unreasonable.

So now after I was at their house yesterday he has decided and is supported by my sister that I'm not welcome.

I'm devastated, I live alone with my DS and my sitter is the closest person to me.

Her children all adore my son, and her youngest son stays here and they visit me once per week at least. I visit them also at least once a week.

My sister also looked after my son while I worked, albeit he is going elsewhere at the minute due to covid.

I can't believe my sister would say that to me. I know BIL is well capable of this. He has already fallen out with one of my other siblings. He didn't speak to one of his own for almost 20 years and didn't speak to his father for longer.

I'm so hurt.

Am I being unreasonable to not apologise when I didn't do anything wrong imo.

Or should I have just apologised?

That self help TV show classic - Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?

An apology to that kind of person would probably choke me, but it depends how badly you want contact with the family.

If you do tell him what he wants to hear, just be very guarded in what you say when he's around, or what you say to others if you think it will get back to him. It's never worth it with that type.

I would a kind of apology. The sort that says ‘I’m sorry if I caused offence to you, it wasnt meant. I was concerned about your daughter however maybe I could have handled it differently.’

I’d do this as even though he sounds like a bit of an arse, you have provoked a bit and if he is controlling, you need your sister and you to continue to be close. That way, if you apologize, you will leave him no room but to change otherwise he will look awful.

Concentrate on your sister from now on. I know it’s tempting to stand up to him, but I’d be more mindful of how you can make your sister more confident to stand up for herself in this relationship.

It's not her, it's him. He's abusive and trying to cut off the escape route she used last time.

Abusive relationships are safeguarding concerns for schools. They might not noticeably do something, particularly as so few are in school right now, but they would be alert to the possibility, rather than just having the standard 'ewwwww' feeling around a parent.

Keep the door open for her and the kids op, just say:

'I am sorry it has all worked out like it has, I was trying to help and did not mean to offend or upset anyone'

Any indirect apology would be best, you are not sorry for supporting your niece and sister, but you are sorry if anyone has been upset along the way. I would do it, because he will cut your sister out of your life and will control her even more if that is the plan, and whats an apology anyway. It is worth doing just to be there for your sister and the children in my view. I would be worried about coercive control

Despite your good intentions some of the things you have said to your Sister and BiL and their family seem quite insensitive. I don’t think that it’s wise to interfere in your Sisters relationship with her partner as your comments are bound to create bad feelings. If you want to help your Sister, provide a sympathetic ear and be there for her if she needs your help. Any criticism of her partner should come from her, not you.

As I see it, the trouble with apologising to him is - when is it ever going to be enough? Isn't he just going to start controlling OP too, if he thinks he can get her to dance to his tune by cutting contact? What will it be next time, looking at him 'funny'? Making a remark that he considers to be aimed at him - even if it isn't?

I just think that apologising will become the thin end of the wedge. If he's as much of a git as he sounds, he will use ANYTHING as a stick to beat OP and her relationship with her sister with.

Tell your sister your door is always open and you will always listen to her and that you love her. And then step away for a while. Hopefully she will see sense soon and he'll be gone for good.

Sorry OP, but talk about giving an abuser ammunition!

If your sister isn't allowed out then surely the only way of seeing her is apologising?

It's not her, it's him. He's abusive and trying to cut off the escape route she used last time.

This.

I wouldn't apologise to the fucker, and for your sister's safety I would keep my distance in case she gets into trouble with him - in other words, let him think he's won. But privately and without him knowing, let her know that your door will always be open to her. If he thinks he's sufficiently isolated her he might escalate with the abuse and she might need you before long.
It takes several attempts to leave an abusive relationship and often the main reason for success is the victim knowing she's got someone she can escape to even if she's cut them off before.

I would send her a message to say that despite you not being welcome at her house, she is definitely welcome at yours and you are always there for her if she needs you.

Thank to you all for taking the time to respond to me.

I have watched him control my sister for 20 years. He is almost 11 years older than her.

It seems that there is nothing else I can do now. She has accepted that I'm on the outside of her life.

@mamascorpio

Yes I had the conversation about 1 in 5 with BIL. I can't recall the conversation it was in a context but I definitely wasn't trying to tell my BIL that one of his children isn't his. It has just become a stick for him to beat my sister with.

He is very controlling of my sister, at my hen do years ago he went mad because she didn't ring until we arrived back at the house at 2.am. Lost it when she stayed overnight at her friends 40 at a hotel all prearranged because she didn't ring at a certain time etc.

She just doesn't have a life outside of their home. Doesn't go out anymore etc because it's not worth the aggro. He always insisted that my sister had to have my mum, who lives 100 miles away there to help him with the children if my sister went out etc etc.

What has your family said? Mamascorpio

I’ve actually been in her position and if it wasn’t these issues ( which I don’t think warranted this) he would have found something else.

Whilst this is him controlling her - she will be well aware of the unfairness of it. What he is doing now is teaching you a lesson for helping her and advising his daughter not to get involved - and she is happy to let that pass.

I’d be really upset if my family then all happily skipped off to their house knowing what he and she have done.

I’d let her know your door is always open but your actually upset with both of them

This will also inadvertently let your family know never to help her out as this will be the consequence. Your family need to stick up for you here

I would say what @Alittleshortforaspacepooper said so she knows she can come to you in the future.

While I don't think you were wrong and you shouldn't apologize, I think this is a lesson learned. Keep all opinions to yourself at the next break-up (and there will be one!!). Stay neutral because they will get back together again and it will all be thrown in your face. Yes, your sister is in a terrible relationship. But she is also a grown woman making her own choices and while you should be there for her when she asks for your help, you don't need to turn into a doormat.

I would be tempted to apologise for your Sisters sake as much as anything .He sounds like a stupid bloody twat, but you will be cut off from her and her children otherwise .I think it is always best to try and keep out of other peoples relationships ,and not say anything that could be misconstrued .The messengers are often shot, and if they reunite said messenger (you in this case!) are out in the cold .You sound like you dislike him and would like DSis to dump him .Be that as it may ,its her decision to make and I would avoid speaking to the DC about it as well he is still their dad and its not fair on them really.

Is she saying she doesn't want any contact with you at all or just that she doesn't want you in her house?
It's hard because it is his house and it were DHs brother and I knew he actively disliked me I wouldn't want him in my house either.

I have told my family, they all know what he is like. What is even more upsetting is that my mum is there at present and would have known what my sister was going to say to me.

I have always been supportive of my sister, I have tried in every way that I could to be a good sister but the last time they split she asked me what I thought and I told her the truth of how his behaviour is to everyone else. That he is controlling etc. She is allowed out but not really by herself without the children. So I get to see her during the day with the children etc but because he is furloughed atm he has much greater control than usual.

Clearly he views me as a threat, the not speaking to me has been going on since Feb, I have just tried to carry on and see my sister as normal and took the view that if he didn't want to speak to me then it's a matter for him.

I was my very much my sisters escape route, I also went up and stayed with her when he was out of the house to help her emotionally and also physically to look after the children.

I think I just need to take a step back from them all, that my sister has accepted this level of control from him and think it's ok means she is lost to me anyways.

This will also inadvertently let your family know never to help her out as this will be the consequence

I’m not sure that telling her husband who she has five kids with that biologically one in five kids doesn’t belong to the known dad is particularly helpful, nor is telling the child to tell her parents it’s between them. Even if it was correct it would not Appear helpful I think.

So I’m not sure the rest of the family would consider the op to have been helping her out really.

What actually happened at their house yesterday op that caused this to occur?

My oldest brother in law did (and does) the exact same thing. Made up weird accusations and picked rubbish fights over imagined sleights until all but one were no longer in his good books. In the beginning he 'magnanimously' announced that he would never stop us from seeing our sister, and that if we wanted to visit her or their children he would make himself scarse.

After realising, after years of manipulative controlling behaviour that we were no longer falling over ourselves to apologise in order to keep the peace he soon changed his tune to 'not being comfortable with us being in his home'.

My sister allows him to do this. Whether she tries to fight him and he just steamrolls her, who knows. When he realised she and their children were getting fed up he miraculously developed a slew of health issues which he has now added to his arsenal of manipulation and control.

Long story short, as long as your sister allows it then he will continue. You might grovel and succeed in smoothing things over now, but it won't be long before he invents another reason to ban you from the house. And he will expect you to grovel again.

That's his litmus test, and he'll wip it out periodically to test you. If he can't control you and you're not eager to appease him then he'll want you gone.

Sorry OP.

I went up with my DS, it was raining so I offered to take her DS out for a drive. The older DD asked if she could come too. I told my sister I was going to take them for a drive through. It was about 6.30 / 7 pm. My sister said they were getting dinner shortly but she didn't tell me not to take them. Anyways I took them and BIl wasn't happy that they had chips and chicken from the drive through as opposed to chicken and chips at home. It wasn't a big sit down meal just food on the plate for them all. He was annoyed, told off the youngest and said he shouldn't have been at the drive through. I did it as a treat for the children as it was rainy, all the parks are closed, I can't take them anywhere else atm, they don't even go into a shop etc and I wouldn't take my DS into one either. So basically I gave him the ammunition to get my sister to tell me not to come to the house. I was also up last week for my nephews birthday, he never mentioned the presents I bought of anything else. But now I have done something wrong and he gets to tell me not to come to the house. My sister even though she is being controlled has accepted that this is ok. I don't think that it is and so I will just leave our relationship for the minute. She could have told him to wise up, and just to move on but instead she has decided to tell me not to come to her house, That's not acceptable to me for her to treat me like that. So I'm also stepping away from her as well. I know that it plays into his hands but I have to be clear about what I will and won't tolerate from people in my life as well.

Just for clarification, is sister 'banned' from communicating with you or visiting at your house? Will he make that difficult for her?

She's obviously being controlled by him. It's up to you to decide whether or not you feel the 'sacrifice' of an apology to stay close to her is worth it so you can 'be there' for her in the future when/if she decides to break away.

I do agree that your '1 in 5' remark was rather ill-considered. But I also think his reaction was a bit much and that he was probably looking for an excuse to alienate you from your sister. And I think, too, that you probably should have directed their eldest to speak to them about how she was feeling if she complained to you about being a 'go-between'. If you brought it up to her and offered unsolicited advice, that was dead wrong. But you can always use that old "I'm sorry you were hurt by what I said" apology if you can't bring yourself to actually say you were wrong.

When you say your sister's house is where 'all the family go', is this a situation in which 'all the family' will simply accept one member of it being 'banned'? Does BiL really have that much 'control' over everyone?

DH's family had a similar situation with his brother's wife after she said something nasty to MiL and then 'banned' the person who pulled her up on it from their house. So we all just started gathering elsewhere. Her house, her rules I guess (since BiL wouldn't stand up to her) but she wasn't the boss of the rest us and we weren't going to give her the power to 'force' us to exclude someone. It actually was kind of nice because she either came and sat there silently with cat's bum face and we all ignored her or she 'had a headache' and stayed home.

I agree with pp. If you truly feel that he is abusive, then swallow your pride and apologise so that you can stay in touch with and support your sister. You don't have to mean a word of it.

To be clear the conversation about paternity was in the context of my job, it wasn't something that was just whipped out of clear air. It is a known statistic, it wasn't until about 2 years later than I was informed by my sister that this was the meaning he took from it. Its is a ridiculous conclusion to jump to that I was secretly trying to tell him this. Surely if there was any doubt about the paternity I wouldn't discuss it. They have been together since my sister was 21 , almost 20 years. She has prob had 3 nights out in the last 10 years without him. And has been pregnant for most the last 10 years when we had that conversation. The idea that one of the children aren't his is ridiculous.

When I spoke to my Neice it was in the presence of my sister because I was concerned about the fact that she was being used to point score between my sister and BIL. They were in effect arguing through her. If my BIL has been standing in that room I would have said the same thing.

In response to my trying to protect my Neice, my BIL declared that I was simply bitter and wanted my sister to have a broken marriage like I did. Very nasty but I didn't respond.

I have never been nothing but civil
To my BIL over the years regardless of how badly he has treated my sister because I always knew he had the capacity for this. When it looked like my sister might actually have the strength to leave him I told her the truth whether that was the wrong thing or not I stand by the fact that I wouldn't join in with his gas lighting of my sister.

I won't apologise to him, because I don't say sorry when I haven't done anything wrong. I won't allow him to feel like anytime he take issue with me I will bend to it because I won't.

I was content to simply carry on, I'm not the one who decided to stop speaking to me, which is the most ridiculous childish way to behave.

I have done all that I can for my sister over the years. I helped her escape a physically abusive relationship in her teens, and even then I had to walk away at various stages because it got to the point I couldn't help her anymore.

I won't pretend that he is the wronged party here. If that costs me what is now a fractured and broken relationship with my sister then so be it.

"That's not acceptable to me for her to treat me like that. So I'm also stepping away from her as well. I know that it plays into his hands but I have to be clear about what I will and won't tolerate from people in my life as well." are you sure it's about what's in your sister's best interests and not that you want to be in control and the unreasonable person who expects everyone to conform with their instructions?

As PPs have stated, he is isolating her so if she did eventually decide to leave him, all her avenues are blocked and she would have to stay with him.
Contact her. Tell her you love her and you will always be there for her even if she has fallen out with you. Tell her you would love to maintain contact between the children but if it’s not permitted that your door will always remain open for her AND her children.