to think the Foreign Secretary / Deputy Prime Minister should know a little bit of the history about Take a knee

[chomalungma]

twitter.com/matthewchampion/status/1273534016570957824

No - it's not from Game of Thrones. Even though he said he didn't know where it came from, maybe it was Game of Thrones.

I know that Colin Kaepernick took a knee during NFL games and this led to massive repercussions with Trump getting involved.

I know now that there is more of a history with Martin Luther King - but it's the recent history I am more aware of.

I do know that it's not Game of Thrones though.

But this is the same guy who didn't know the importance of the Dover - Calais ferry crossing.

Maybe you see different?

I do yes. I see a crowd of heightened people and the very real possibility the situation could tip over into violence as indeed it has done repeatedly. It is in no way the same as the photo of the two sportsmen peacefully protesting as is their perfect right to do. But I think you know this don't you?

I'd like to believe any policeman/woman who chooses do engage in this action of solidarity, by their personal choice.

Some of the police clearly did not want to do it but we're obviously fearful of what would happen if they didn't.

I watched some videos of police in America and it was the same. Many did it freely and willingly but some didn't. One video was a policewoman being yelled at and cajoled by protesters. She was clearly undecided and wary - kneeling in front of a baying mob isn't particularly safe is it? Eventually she did for barely a second but she looked immensely uncomfortable. That isn't acceptable.

I see a crowd of heightened people and the very real possibility the situation could tip over into violence as indeed it has done repeatedly

From that small picture, that's just a crowd of people. If you see violence in that, well, you see what you want to see.

I see police showing a gesture of solidarity.

I think that when most people are taking a knee, they are NOT doing it to show support for the extreme views of some of the BLM demands but in support and solidarity with people who have suffered racism.

@chomalungma

There is an organisation called BLM. I fundamentally disagree with some of their assertions, so, taking a knee has come to signify support for that organisatio

I wonder how many of the people who are taking a knee are showing support for the aims of BLM though?

And how many are showing it as general support for anti-racism?

I know that if I took a knee, it would be for support for anti-racism.

Good for you and good for them.

I know what the BLM organisation are fighting for, I know what their objectives are - I don't support many of them.

I think that when most people are taking a knee, they are NOT doing it to show support for the extreme views of some of the BLM demands but in support and solidarity with people who have suffered racism.

Yes, and you’ve made that point over and over and over again on this thread. Others have explained their views but you just don’t seem to see them as valid because your views are more important to you.

You’re not really asking for people’s reasons, you’re just interested in telling them they’re wrong if they don’t fit with yours.

I’m done with this now.

I think that when most people are taking a knee, they are NOT doing it to show support for the extreme views of some of the BLM demands but in support and solidarity with people who have suffered racism.

I really hope you're right. I do. But I don't think you are. I think a significant amount of people are being pressured and shamed into doing it, you and others are doing it right here on this thread. I think people can support however they want to and that should be respected. I don't think you are being particularly respectful with your constant requests for explanations and then not taking much notice when you get them. However it's easy to get sucked into going round and round in circles in this kind of discussion isn't it? So we are just going to have to agree to disagree on what is an appropriate sign of support

This thread is about the UK Foreign Secretary demeaning public engagement with peaceful anti-racist protest. Not about what posters individual chose to do or not.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/dominic-raab-knee-protests-racism-kaepernick-hancock-a9573631.html

You’re not really asking for people’s reasons, you’re just interested in telling them they’re wrong if they don’t fit with yours

Maybe I am just trying to reassure people that taking a knee is not going to be seen as supporting the extreme views of BLM but as being seen as supporting anti-racism in general?

Maybe some people will have read this thread and then decided that taking a knee is something they would like to do as they see it as a support for anti-racism.

Some people will have read other views and then decided that - no they won't take a knee because it might be seen as being linked with BLM and they don't approve of that.

Some people will have read it and then realised it has nothing to do with Game of Thrones and being submissive and instead will have learnt about Colin Kaepernick, the NFL and what happened to him and why he decided to take a knee.

Typo * individual posters

I understand the subservient view of taking a knee especially when the reports seem to show police and army being bullied, cajoled and shouted at to take it.

I can see that it is an act of solidarity when the protest is peaceful and the protesters are kneeling or lying to join them on your knees.

I'd rather politicians actually put forward ideas to combat and remove racism than virtue signal and do nothing concrete.

Firstly, of course the foreign secretary should have known about the reason for taking the knee.
He has in itself highlighted the issue, it seemed it simply wasnt important enough for him to do a bit of research into one of the major things happening in this country.

Whether he should himself take the knee or you yourself should take the kneee is another discussion to the main point. He should know why
Why cant people see that.

I cant understand why people keep saying they want action not gestures, when we can have both.
By showing solidarity and taking the knee does not mean people feel their part is done, they will show solidarity and push for change in other ways. Like trying to educate people, expose the truths within our society and noy walk on by when you are an observer to it.

I also dont understand why people would be offended by one of their leaders doing it?
Who do they feel the leader would look subserviant to??

I cant see how people can not identify the difference on this situation and showing subservience, but it is definately everyones entitlement to do as they see fit, but i think if they lived a day in the lives of those who need our solidarity, their minds may be changed slightly.

Good for Raab.

Its all tokenism. Getting ridiculous.

'Maybe I am just trying to reassure people that taking a knee is not going to be seen as supporting the extreme views of BLM but as being seen as supporting anti-racism in general'

You sound very naive. It would be nice if true but no, 'taking the knee' has now become to signify allegiance or sympathy with a far left political movement dressed up as anti racist (but seems to exclude Asian and other ethnic minorities) to make it more acceptable.

Like wearing a Poppy it's down to individual choice but I wouldn't expect to hear a politician (who recently stood in as PM no less) to scoff at that.

www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-involved/remembrance/about-remembrance/the-poppy

@DGRossetti I agree with everything you've said. But it gets me that white people (and I'm one) feel that we can comment on the way in which black and brown people have chosen to make their point and fight this fight. The term is 'white privilege' (and not 'black disprivilege', as someone was trying to argue on MN the other day) because for once we need to see this from the black person's perspective, and not the white person's. And if black people feel that taking the knee is a powerful way of expressing their solidarity, what gives white people the right to question that? It's more white supremacy. Shut up. Accept their choices as being valid in this fight which is about black and brown people's equality and voice.
And Dominic Raab is a disgrace. He's where he is because he's rich and privileged.

So de when had it become a thing. The only think I will genuflect to is the Blessed Sacrament. It doesn't seem quite right for me to do it for any other reason!

[quote CaptainNelson]@DGRossetti I agree with everything you've said. But it gets me that white people (and I'm one) feel that we can comment on the way in which black and brown people have chosen to make their point and fight this fight. The term is 'white privilege' (and not 'black disprivilege', as someone was trying to argue on MN the other day) because for once we need to see this from the black person's perspective, and not the white person's. And if black people feel that taking the knee is a powerful way of expressing their solidarity, what gives white people the right to question that? It's more white supremacy. Shut up. Accept their choices as being valid in this fight which is about black and brown people's equality and voice.
And Dominic Raab is a disgrace. He's where he is because he's rich and privileged.[/quote]
Is anyone saying that people can't take a knee if that's what they choose to do?

What I'm seeing is people saying you do as you see fit but I'm not going to do it. That's not white people saying people aren't allowed to do it is it?

Hearhoovesthinkzebras it does matter how the UK Foreign Secretary addresses the issue surely? Due to his position shouldn't he discuss it more respectfully?

And if black people feel that taking the knee is a powerful way of expressing their solidarity, what gives white people the right to question that? It's more white supremacy. Shut up. Accept their choices as being valid in this fight which is about black and brown people's equality and voice

But that is not what anyone is questioning (and you seem to be working on the assumption that everyone on here saying they aren't happy to take the knee are all white).
You said above Accept their choices as being valid ....' that needs to work the other way as well, it should also be an equally valid choice not to take the knee and without repercussion.

@Squirrel134 Great posts, thank you.
The point about Raab was that he was questioning why it's been chosen as a symbol and as Foreign Minister he should know, yes. He has clearly spent more time over the past few years watching questionable TV (I don't like GoT, sorry) than paying attention to world events.
Each person of course has the right to choose whether to take the knee or not; no-one should be or feel forced to do it. But I disagree with the PP who has 'told her DCs not to do it' - explore it, find out the reasons for it and let them decide. They have the right to freedom of thought as well, you know.

@Mumratheevergiving

Hearhoovesthinkzebras it does matter how the UK Foreign Secretary addresses the issue surely? Due to his position shouldn't he discuss it more respectfully?

I haven't mentioned him.

The whole government are spare parts tbh so I wouldn't expect anything different from any of them.

It's still his choice whether to take a knee or not but he's shown himself up by appearing to not know why it's being done. Maybe there are diplomatic reasons for him doing it though, as other posters have said.

@hearhoovesthinkzebras
Yes, Raab said that. He is a white man questioning the symbolic action chosen by black people in the US to express their frustration. And many others on this thread have been arguing that it's an act of subservience and so not appropriate. I don't know if they're black, brown or white, of course.
And I've already said that of course, individuals have the right to choose whether they do this or not.

The original example made sense, it made perfect sense and was very powerful because of it. In the context of refusing to stand for the national anthem it's a brilliant symbol of the movement

Having groups of people take the knee Infront of protestors or at events etc doesn't have the same meaning - it comes across more as the subservient gesture many of us are familiar with. I can see why people are uncomfortable with it

I agree with previous posters that it's in danger of becoming one of those empty gestures, everyone jumps on board, ticks that box, goes back to normal, job done. When actually there is so much change that needs to take place.

I think the way he framed it was clumsy and comes across as supremely ill informed but I agree with the sentiment. I think we should be focusing our energies and attentions into things that really make a difference to BLM.

Having groups of people take the knee Infront of protestors or at events etc doesn't have the same meaning - it comes across more as the subservient gesture many of us are familiar with. I can see why people are uncomfortable with it

Especially when you see people being forced to do it. It can't be seen as anything but a subservient gesture.

@chomalungma

t is not up to you to decide that for everyone else, so yes stop with the faux outrage/confusion which implies that if white people won't do it then they must be racist. Because that's what you're implying isn't it

No, it isn't.

I think it people who take the knee are showing their support for anti-racism. It's a great gesture.

If you don't want to take the knee, then I do wonder why you wouldn't want to show your support for anti-racism in such a simple way. It's got nothing to do with being submissive or anything.

Then again, people don't want to wear poppies or sing the National Anthem - and those people have their reasons.

Because I wouldn’t be able to get up again. Years of playing netball shagged my knees. DH had had knee replacement surgery, he couldn’t do it either. We’re a right pair of crap knee people but we are very much for racial equality. It isn’t a simple way for Team Crap Knees and many others also might have physical reasons, such as arthritis, for not being able to.