To think it's ironic about Niqab and face coverings

[IsntItIronicDontYouThink]

Just thought about this and how ironically, face coverings have become mandatory on public transports and it makes me think of Muslim women (Niqab wearing women specifically) who've had a hard time because of their face coverings to now find that everyone has to cover their faces (for different reasons yes but still ironic, isn't it?)

Googled to see if anyone else mentions this. Here's a piece I found about it (There's more but just picked this one).

www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2020/06/12/face-mask-compulsory-muslim-women-12838585/amp/

@amijustparanoidorjuststoned

PP saying that they believe that Niqab/hijabs are OBVIOUSLY designed by men to oppress women, therefore in the eyes of a privileged white woman, it's very wrong. But here's the plot twist: It's nobody else's business, ESPECIALLY not white people, what other people from other religions wear. Which is why the French and Danish laws are controversial.

Have you stopped to consider some Muslim women actually feed comfortable being covered? You're right, some don't. But in the modern world it is very rare that women are forced to completely cover up. It is all down to individual choice.

Please educate yourselves. Remember you have all had a few lessons on white privilege recently!

Im not white, but I’m educated enough to know that some white people are also Muslim. So your post is nothing but race baiting nonsense.

KitKatKit

You must have missed the huge demonstrations in Iran by women who wanted the compulsive use of Hijab banned. Many of them are in prison because of that, but I suppose you will say that never happened, or they went to prison through their own free will?

@bluebluezoo. That must be tough for you - hopefully this whole thing will pass sooner rather than later and we can ditch the face masks.

What? Why should you have an opinion (I'm guessing you meant to say), on what other women are wearing? How on earth is that any of your business?!?!

No, Kitkat, I didn't say this.

This is what I said.

should not have an option of what other women are made to wear

See if you can spot the difference and don't put words in my mouth.

[quote Cadent]@PlanDeRaccordement And yet I ask - what on Earth has that got to do with Muslim women who wear hijab/niqab?

Muslim women have enough shit to deal with, don’t make them responsible for the ills of society.[/quote]
What are you referring to?

The reports and a few examples of women imprisoned or killed for not wearing a hijab/niqab prove that it is not her free choice whether or not to wear one.

@PlanDeRaccordement. Your research skills are phenomenal but those articles mean absolutely NOTHING in this conversation.

Are you telling me that non-Muslim women aren't raped / tortured/ killed/ brutalised every single year? I'm pretty sure it's more than 12 women?!!!
What reasoning are we putting behind their murders? 'Mentally unstable' partners? 'Jealous' husbands? 'Scorned' lovers?

We use all these words to describe non-Muslim murderers, but suddenly when the perpetrator of a horrific crime is Muslim, they're not 'mentally unstable', they're just Muslim!

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

What? Why should you have an opinion (I'm guessing you meant to say), on what other women are wearing? How on earth is that any of your business?!?!

No, Kitkat, I didn't say this.

This is what I said.

should not have an option of what other women are made to wear

See if you can spot the difference and don't put words in my mouth.

Pahahaha that makes it even worse!

@LittleMissRedHat

Not wishing to get into a debate, but those posters who only see the wearing of the niqab and hijab as being subjugation or oppression of women should really do some research. Sadly your ignorance is showing. Many, (indeed most) women who wear them do so because they WANT to. Of course there are some who only do so because of outside pressure, but this is simply not the case for most. Your pity or outrage is for the most part misplaced.

This. Sadly once again the ignorance on Mumsnet is showing and people are making uneducated generalisations

@PlanDeR I’m referring to your post to me

The reports and a few examples of women imprisoned or killed for not wearing a hijab/niqab prove that it is not her free choice whether or not to wear one.

Who is ‘her’? Many women do choose to wear the hijab/niqab. To disbelieve them is to take away their agency.

@andyoldlabour

KitKatKit

You must have missed the huge demonstrations in Iran by women who wanted the compulsive use of Hijab banned. Many of them are in prison because of that, but I suppose you will say that never happened, or they went to prison through their own free will?

Err no

Yes, I have an opinion on what women are made to wear, and not on what women are choosing to wear.

Not sure how this is a bad thing.

Im not white, but I’m educated enough to know that some white people are also Muslim. So your post is nothing but race baiting nonsense.

I was just thinking, a poster upthread was accused of 'White-splaining', without actually disclosing her skin colour.

There are a lot of assumptions on this thread.

KitKat,
The Muslim women killed that I have posted about were specifically killed because they refused to wear traditional dress including the hijab/niqab. Their killers- parents or husband- stated that was why they had murdered the women, although one was actually a 17yr old child.

To ignore this and claim that it’s just another murder like any other that happens all the time and not at all motivated or justified by an oppressive religiously mandated dress code is wilful ignorance and denial of reality.

@PlanDeRaccordement Okay, so whilst I think "race baiting nonsense" is a little harsh, I'll come at it from another angle.

It's about choice. I have a few Muslim friends from London who used to wear hijabs and Niqabs. Admittedly they were brought up in very conservative Muslim families where this was expected, however, they never used to wish any differently. It makes them feel more comfortable. So... if the choice is down to the woman, why are some countries making this a legal matter?

From another angle though, of course it is abhorrent than in certain countries women can be thrown in prison for not wearing a certain item of clothing. But luckily, we live in a part of the world that promotes freedom and defending the right to have an opinion that other's don't, as the saying sort of goes.

I hope that makes some sort of sense.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon are how any of these women may choose to dress hurting you at all?

If not.. maybe try taking up Scrabble or another hobby!

Many women do choose to wear the hijab/niqab. To disbelieve them is to take away their agency.

I do not disbelieve them. I never said that. I was responding to the posters saying that they have only met or heard of muslim women who choose to wear them, therefore women who are forced to wear them do not exist.

Many women are forced to wear them under threat of imprisonments, physical violence and death by honour killing. Even in the U.K. If it happens in the U.K., how much more frequently does it happen in Muslim countries where it is literally legalised violence and murder?

@PlanDeRaccordement You're literally doing exactly what you're accusing me of.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon. You're not entitled to have an opinion/option on what other women wear. None of us do! Like I said in one of my earlier posts, I will defend any woman's right to wear a bikini, a burkini or anything in between.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon are how any of these women may choose to dress hurting you at all?

Ok, I'll say it again, I have an opinion on what women are made to wear, and not on what women are choosing to wear.

Why would you assume that I'm hurt by what someone chooses to wear?

This is getting a bit strange.

KitKat, I honestly don't know how you come to your interpretation of what I said.

This is what I said, Yes, I have an opinion on what women are made to wear, and not on what women are choosing to wear.

Wearing a niqab is not a requirement in Islam. A huge amount of the Muslim population is in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh and most of these women do not wear a niqab. They are more likely to wear a scarf around the shoulder and then occasionally place this on the head - leaving some hair visible at both the front and back.

Afghan and Saudi women are not the majority. Afghan women were not fully covered until the Soviet invasion.

Typical South Asian dress
Afghan women in the 1970s
South Asian style head covering (used by women of all faiths)

@thisenglishlife THANK YOU

We can’t make assumptions that a woman has chosen to wear it or not. Not in the U.K., not anywhere. I think too often we make the assumption that in the U.K. or France or Canada that all Muslim women living there are doing it by choice. Some are not because a few are killed every year for refusing traditional dress/hijab. How many more are wearing it under threat? But too afraid of the coercion, violence or even being murdered by their own husband or parents to resist? Too afraid to even admit it to friends or authorities?

We can readily understand and empathise with women trapped in a violent and abusive home telling hospital staff, oh I fell or i accidently bumped my eye on a door, or I’m clumsy and burned myself because of this same fear. 3 women die every week...how many more are too afraid to speak out? The deaths are just the tip of an iceberg. We know the statistics that hundreds of thousands of women every year are abused by domestic violence. All from average 150 deaths per year. Then would not a smaller ice berg with 12 honour killing deaths per year, not indicate at least thousands of women unable to exercise their rights and freedoms?

How many is too many? How many deaths do we need before we see it as an issue worthy of addressing?

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

KitKat, I honestly don't know how you come to your interpretation of what I said.

This is what I said, Yes, I have an opinion on what women are made to wear, and not on what women are choosing to wear.

To quote you directly @ChardonnaysPetDragon you said:

At 13:31 - "I don't see why, as a woman I should not have an option of what other women are made to wear"

I came to whatever interpretation of what you said by those exact words above. You typed them. They made no sense. That's on you, not me.

A few years ago, my DW and I went to Austria and one day took a trip to a lovely place called Zell am Zee. It was scorching hot, the sort of day when you wanted to spend as much time in the shade as possible.
There was a group of seven Muslims, two guys and five women. The guys wore light coloured trousers with short sleeved shirts. The women all had black Burkhas on.
My DW was quite angry, because she knew how uncomfortable they must have been.
We used to go to Persian restaurants in London quite often and you would hardly ever see any woman wearing a headscarf, let alone a montau.
All the rules in every religion were put in place by men, including the Hijab rules.