Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it's ironic about Niqab and face coverings

616 replies

IsntItIronicDontYouThink · 18/06/2020 10:00

Just thought about this and how ironically, face coverings have become mandatory on public transports and it makes me think of Muslim women (Niqab wearing women specifically) who've had a hard time because of their face coverings to now find that everyone has to cover their faces (for different reasons yes but still ironic, isn't it?)

Googled to see if anyone else mentions this. Here's a piece I found about it (There's more but just picked this one).

www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2020/06/12/face-mask-compulsory-muslim-women-12838585/amp/

OP posts:
HelloToMyKitty · 19/06/2020 12:35

Why don’t you educate yourself instead of expecting Muslims to educate you?

I live in a Muslim country. I certainly don’t need you to educate me on this.

No men anywhere in the MENA cover their face. Doesn’t that seem, I don’t know, sexist to you?

Cadent · 19/06/2020 12:39

@HelloToMyKitty

How is me telling you to educate yourself instead of saying ‘they [Muslims] never answer this’ educating you?

You live in a Muslim country but have never thought to read up on this issue and expect Muslims to convince you. Doesn’t that seem, I don’t know, arrogant to you?

Xenia · 19/06/2020 12:47

I don't support bans on face coverings - one reason lots of people like to live in the UK is we tend not to ban things; however I am against the breaches of civil liberties during lock down. Yet part of freedom is we have the right to say things that are our views - that women covering faces and heads can be very sexist and unfair and I encourage them not to do so - it is not even required by the Koran anyway.

HelloToMyKitty · 19/06/2020 12:52

Cadent

Nice how you turned my ‘they’ into a monolithic ‘Muslims’

Muslims are obviously not a monolith and most Muslims do not wear a niqab. I certainly never see it in Turkey or Indonesia, for instance. It’s very much a Gulf practice.

have never thought to read up on this issue and expect Muslims to convince you. Doesn’t that seem, I don’t know, arrogant to you?

I don’t expect them to convince me, because I see the effects of the niqab and the larger system of oppression women face in daily life. It’s not academic here, it’s real life. I have formed my opinion from observation.

Naive Westerners who talk about ‘choice’ wrt the niqab cannot possibly understand. The family is one of the strongest pillars of society in the Gulf, and it’s very, very hard to go against your own family and assert your own choices. Not just legally, but socially too.

Linning · 19/06/2020 12:53

@HelloToMyKitty

all Muslim women can not socialise with men who aren't a family member. Just as men can't also. It works both ways

Except ... they very often do. Through work or other social events here in the Gulf. It seems only women have to follow these rules. I know a lot of local men and while not terribly deep relationships, I do speak and work together with them on projects. My DH cannot say the same about local women.

I addressed only the posts of women who came here and declared they were doing it because they WANT to and are confronted to people like you

They are not confronted by people like me. It is the norm here, more often assumptions are made about me and my sexuality, actually (i.e. I am easy because I am not a Muslim nor do I cover my hair).

Why can't a woman have equal access to opportunities without the need of men?

I live in a literal patriarchy. Women don’t have equal access to opportunities and you know it.

Facilities for women are inevitably worse than the provisions for men. Why do I always have to walk in the side entrances of government buildings, while men can walk in the big front entrances? Why are there always fewer staff for the women’s area? Why are there are only one or two ‘women’s’ days as compared to men? If they treated minorities like this, it would be apartheid, but because it happens to women, it’s okay. It’s just their culture 🙄

It is sexism. Full stop.

The thing IS feminism is about letting women have CHOICES

Choices don’t exist in a vacuum.

Plenty of women love aspects of their culture that cannot be understood through Western lenses, and would absolutely recoiled at the idea of living a similar life to UK/US or European women

That’s fine, but equally, you should realize how incredibly sexist these practices are to Westerners, and refrain from doing them in Western countries?

I dress modestly and use the women’s ‘separate-and-totally-unequal’ facilities here because I chose to come here, knowing what it was like.

So, if you go to the West, please make the same and do not hide your face, as that would cause discomfort to the locals.

The goal is for Women to have EQUAL rights within their country not to ''Westernize'' worldwide women and force them to live according to Western (or your own personal) standards, which is what you seem to aim for

If you’ve read anything I wrote, you’d know that while I personally think it’s sexist, I am not trying to get them to change their own countries. The women here have to do it. And are doing it, FWIW.

But women do not have equal rights in the Gulf, and it’s absolutely ridiculous of you to claim that. Did you know that in order to work, I needed my husband’s permission? Yet, he wouldn’t need mine. Does that sound equal to you? In legal cases, a woman’s testimony is still somehow worth less. If you are raped here, you can be jailed. Where is the equality?

Why are you saying that the British/Western way is the better way?

All I am asking is that the same due consideration be given to our culture and way of life. We consider the niqab a public erasure of women. It relegates women to the domestic sphere, to the home. It is incompatible with modern feminist principles.

Hear their grievance

What is their grievance? Okay, many women do not want to participate in the public sphere, fine. But many do and cannot because of social norms. Does that seem right to you? Or is it okay because that’s the culture?

This is not my fight, and women in the Gulf have made great strides in equalizing their society. But there are still large gender gaps here, as I outlined earlier.

Do your part in making sure they obtain what they need, not what YOU (as a western person) think they need

Please, this is a very wealthy society and they need nothing from me. But my thoughts are my own.

You made a thread that was about Niqabi women in the UK (mostly) And the reaction of people ore-Covid and now about women in the Middle East so yes obviously nobody intend to imply women living in the Middle East are equal to women in the UK or that all women have equal rights and freedom around the world. That wasn’t the point of my answer (and I bet you know that) nor the point of the thread.

So I won’t bother replying to something that is answering a totally different topic and context to the one my post/answer was aimed at. It would be pointless.

As for «Minorities should adapt because I adapt when I am there». I disagree with that. Western folks have colonized countries and eradicated people, history, cultures and languages, it has forced people to give up on their heritage and abandon their land and families/people and customs to conform to a western lifestyle (were they would still be othered anyway) AGAINST their will FOR CENTURIES.

I do NOT believe people from other countries owe shit to western countries in terms of «adaptability» anymore and they absolutely should not be made to adapt to our culture and customs any more than they are willing to. I do on the other hand, indeed, expect Westerners to start doing what they failed to do for centuries and adapt and embrace other cultures though.

Call it reparation for colonialism ?

Western folks consider the Niqab «erasure» and that makes them uncomfortable to have to be confronted to other culture? What about they open an history book and understand what erasure actually is and look like and how we (western folks)!have erased millions of women (and men and children) until fairly recently because we were uncomfortable about their culture and just their whole being really. I bloody HOPE western folks swallow their need for «consideration» and learn to look the other way if they hate staring at anything remotely different so much.

Can’t believe we need to state why it’s NOT appropriate for western countries to request consideration (or anything for that matter) from countries they had zero respect nor consideration for until about 100 years ago (if that) and literally erased and/or enslaved for centuries.

HelloToMyKitty · 19/06/2020 13:27

Western folks have colonized countries and eradicated people, history, cultures and languages, it has forced people to give up on their heritage and abandon their land and families/people and customs to conform to a western lifestyle (were they would still be othered anyway) AGAINST their will FOR CENTURIES

You should really drop this line of argument. Like, do you even understand how Islam spread? Talk about people being forced to give up their heritage, language and customs ....

Muslimah2020 · 19/06/2020 13:30

Thanks @linning however this is not new to me at all unfortunately.

What I can't fathom and never have been able to is why me being a religious person, you would think I have a closed mind to other people and their choices and views. Yet I am open minded and have no problem with how others choose to live even if I personally wouldn't choose to live that way, yet people that are supposed to be open minded and "free" living can't do the same to other ways of life they don't understand that is completely bewildering to me.

My husband treats me like a queen, is the most loving and sweet man I have ever met who does everything for me and our family. He doesnt work with or speak to other women and lowers his gaze when he has to speak to women in settings such as bank, shops etc. He does this out of modesty, so for us it works both ways. We do this not as a condition on eachother, but as what we believe God asks us to do. I have never felt I am unable to do anything I want to because of my niqab, we travel, go to amusement parks, do sports, go to restaurants, shopping, take the kids to play just like anyone else does. We live our life to the fullest. I still interact with women when out and speak to men if necessary in shops or a bank, you would be surprised that the eyes speak alot about emotions and I've never had a problem communicating because of it. I speak and am heard, I'm not wearing duck tape to my mouth!!! We live in a Muslim country and there are many tourists that come here and embrace the culture, no one treats them any differently because they choose to live differently, so why can it not be the same in a country I was BORN in. England is a multicultural society, that is what we are apparently are so proud of, yet still people have no mind to accept others for who and what they are. I as a Muslim woman have NEVER come across anyone forced to wear the niqab or hijab. And I have mixed with thousands of Muslims if not more. The seperation of men and women is for both sexes not just the women and is also practised in Judaism, yet that is never spoken of. This is how we live, we are HAPPY. Be and let live.

IsntItIronicDontYouThink · 19/06/2020 15:20

Yet part of freedom is we have the right to say things that are our views - that women covering faces and heads can be very sexist and unfair and I encourage them not to do so - it is not even required by the Koran anyway

Isn't that what the Muslim women sharing their experience here are saying? That it isn't required but they choose to? Haven't you made their point for them?

OP posts:
andyoldlabour · 19/06/2020 15:27

I think the point is, that there are Muslim women who wear the niqab willingly, but there are millions more who are forced to do so, either by the laws of the country they live in - Saudi Arabia, Iran etc - or pressure from the community they live in.

Muslimah2020 · 19/06/2020 15:28

This isn't true. There is a difference in opinion amongst the scholars. Some Islamic scholars see niqab as mandatory, some see it as not mandatory but the preferred choice and a good thing to do for many reasons. I'm not about to get into a religious debate on here but just wanted to clear this up.

Muslimah2020 · 19/06/2020 15:32

I believe it is mandatory, however I do it for myself to be closer to God and because I believe this is what God wants me to do. It makes me feel good to wear it and it is a choice. There may be women who do not want to wear it, however I have many friends in Saudi who feel the same way as me. Forcing a woman to cover goes against Islam as we belive there is no compulsion in religion as is specified in the quran. And a woman covering herself to please her husband or family gets no reward for this, the reward comes only when you do things for the sake of God. This is the truth of Islam. And it is a sin upon anyone who forces anyone to do anything.

AnnaJKing · 19/06/2020 16:33

Are posters arguing that because some women are forced to do something, then no-one should do that thing? Why does that apply only to hair/face coverings and not the many other things women might be either forced or choose to do?

Dancethereupontheshore · 19/06/2020 16:58

@LittleMissRedHat my friend in Egypt would say what a load of utter tosh to you. Her, her sister and mother all wear a hijab as they feel huge societal pressure to including harrassment when out and about if they don’t. She showed me photos of her parents growing up when the mother just dressed normally. She said societal pressure is massive there now compared to 40 years ago. It’s not a choice for them or their social circle.

Dancethereupontheshore · 19/06/2020 17:00

I feel so incredibly sorry for women who wear face coverings now I’ve been wearing masks out and about. It’s hot, itchy and uncomfortable and I find it hard to breathe. Can’t wait to get it off me the second I get out the door of the shop!!! Couldn’t imagine spending most of my life like that - it’s horrendous.

Dancethereupontheshore · 19/06/2020 17:05

@Muslimah2020 your points are very interesting about why you wear a covering. Do you mind me asking do you believe you are closer to god than your husband or any Muslim man or child given then don’t wear a covering and if not why not if the covering is what gives you a closeness to god.

Muslimah2020 · 19/06/2020 17:13

Niqab is made from a soft light material, it is nothing like a face mask which is hot and sweaty and itchy as I had to wear one with my female doctor a few weeks back. I don't think it makes me closer to God than any man (as its not for them anyway) or woman who chooses not to wear it. However for me this is a choice I have happily made and I feel it makes me personally feel closer to God for my personal faith and spiritual journey. Yes.

Muslimah2020 · 19/06/2020 17:14

As I said before everyone has different interpretations on what the definitions of covering and modesty are for a woman in Islam. This is my definition and my choice.

TARSCOUT · 19/06/2020 17:19

I bet we'll still have to take our helmets off in a petrol station though......

paastumho · 19/06/2020 17:22

many posters are missing the point about gender equality in Islam. It is about equal but different rights for genders, recognising that they are not the same. So saying why aren't men made to wear a hijab/niqab doesn't make sense. It's about basic science, women's bodies are attractive to men in a way that is not the same the other way round. You could say men should control themselves and ofcourse that is true, Islam tells then to lower their gaze. A thread recently on here was from a woman complaining about men staring when she went out wearing a crop top. She was told to cover up if she felt uncomfortable on the basis you can t control other ppls reactions. Same applies here.

Dancethereupontheshore · 19/06/2020 17:33

@Muslimah2020 so you personally need to wear it to feel closer to god but other Muslim women who don’t wear it , you regard as being equally as close to god without it as you are with it... . just seems odd. Do you think you need to go the extra mile to be close to god but others don’t?

Muslimah2020 · 19/06/2020 17:41

@dancetheopenshores - as I said before I believe it to be mandatory.. So for me yes it makes me fulfill the obligations in my faith. However some scholars say it is not mandatory but preferred, there is a difference in opinion. So if a woman follows that interpretation then that is her belief so she is doing what she thinks is right and I am doing what I believe to be right, so we are both equally close to God. There is much more to being Muslim than just this. But in regards to just niqab this is my answer.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 19/06/2020 17:58

It's about basic science, women's bodies are attractive to men in a way that is not the same the other way round

Sorry, what basic science is that? Can you explain this further?

022828MAN · 19/06/2020 18:29

It's about basic science, women's bodies are attractive to men in a way that is not the same the other way round

This is deeply disturbing.
So it's 'basic science' that men are SO attracted to the female form, so we must cover up in order for them to what? Not rape us?

Dancethereupontheshore · 19/06/2020 18:46

@Muslimah2020 I suppose most religion isn’t rational! It’s difficult to follow your train of thought of you must wear it to be close to god, your husband isn’t supposed to wear it so he’s close to god and a woman who doesn’t wear it is also close to god as she believes she doesn’t need to wear it.... in that case the easier solution for all Muslim women is to take the I believe I’m close to god without it and forgo the hassle.

I wonder why god decided that women only need to cover up. It’s funny how his religious views lean so close to patriarchal ones that men hold...

Thanks for your replies.

Muslimah2020 · 19/06/2020 18:54

My husband is a man and I am a woman. He also has to dress modestly but in a different way. Men and women are not the same, we are equal but with different requirements and my husband dresses modestly in the way required by men. And you didn't understand what I said, I follow scholars who say it is mandatory to wear the niqab so for me I believe all women must wear it. However if a muslim followed scholars who said it is not mandatory but preferred and she chooses to just wear hijab then that is her belief. But for me I believe it is an obligation of my faith and one that I am happy to abide by. I would never want to not wear the niqab and it is "not a bother to me" to wear it, I love my niqab and what it represents - whether you understand this or not, it's really not of concern to me. I don't understand why women wear short dresses outside and feel comfortable in doing so, but I don't need you to explain the reason behind it for me to respect freedom of choice.

Swipe left for the next trending thread