To think it's ironic about Niqab and face coverings

[IsntItIronicDontYouThink]

Just thought about this and how ironically, face coverings have become mandatory on public transports and it makes me think of Muslim women (Niqab wearing women specifically) who've had a hard time because of their face coverings to now find that everyone has to cover their faces (for different reasons yes but still ironic, isn't it?)

Googled to see if anyone else mentions this. Here's a piece I found about it (There's more but just picked this one).

www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2020/06/12/face-mask-compulsory-muslim-women-12838585/amp/

I can see what you mean OP, specifically though in respect of all the people who were shouting "it's so wrong not to be able to see a person's face/ their lips moving!" "Children will be scared!" & Now...here we are.

Thanks @DeeCeeCherry that's exactly what's meant but PP are just being deliberately obtuse and faux analytical over something else for no reason other than this is one of their favourite pastimes, telling muslim women what they think about their lifestyle. I suspect they wouldn't tell the men

Mumsnet: Most of us are feminists here and outraged at people forcing women to do things they don't want to do, our body our choice, wear what you want to wear if you are a woman.
Muslim woman: Cool, I feel the same way that's why I wear the Niqab.
Mumsnet: No, not the niqab though, that's oppressive.
Muslim woman: But you said you are a feminist and that women should have the right to do whatever they want to do with their body?
Musmnet: Yes but not the Niqab though, it's oppressive.
Muslim woman: But I am not oppressed? That's just what I want to wear.
Mumsnet: I don't believe that. You are pandering to men.
Muslim woman: How is me wearing a Niqab I want and chose to wear pandering to men anymore than a woman wearing a bikini or tight dress pandering to Western men? And how is you telling me I can't or shouldn't wear a Niqab any less oppressive than men who request women wear or not wear certain things?
Mumsnet: It's not the same thing.

Muslim woman: How so?
Mumsnet: I am a feminist, men are part of the patriarchy, when a man tells you what to wear or not to wear he is being sexist, when I try to tell you what to wear or not to wear and what you should and shouldn't do, I am doing an act of feminism.
Muslim woman: Alright...so is it ''my body my choice'' and '' wear whatever you want if you are a woman'' or not?
Mumsnet: Absolutely, just don't wear anything I perceive as oppressive. No men should dictate what you wear or feel entitled to your body though, ever.
Muslim woman: Sweet because I am wearing the Niqab on my own free will and doing so because I do not feel men are entitled to see my body or my face and that it's my choice who I show parts of my body to.

Mumsnet: But...but WHY don't you want men to see your body/face? Surely they should be able to? They are entitled to see it, why are you not letting them see your face/body?! You not letting a man see your body and face and feeling like it is your place to decide who and when you show your body/face to is a CLEAR sign of oppression.
Muslim woman: But...
Mumsnet: NO, please, enough. Stay quiet now and let me be outraged on your behalf over the oppression you are clearly living. Trust me, I am a feminist, I know oppression when I see it and you are being thoroughly oppressed. Don't worry though, I will sort it for you by advocating for the government to pass laws that will prevent you from wearing the Niqab so everyone, including men can see your face, and if you were indeed oppressed in the first place, I guess it would mean that you would probably end up more oppressed and forced to stay home instead of having the freedom to go out and about but I mean, better uncovered and at home, than covered and with more freedom, am I right?

I am a feminist too btw, so nothing against actual feminism, but women who pretend to be feminists and care about women oppression all while trying to silence and censor the women at the core of the topic at hand and to add salt to the injury, by suggesting they wear what they (mumsnetters) personally feel acceptable followed up to questioning as to why Muslim women are refusing to expose their body to men, while preaching men aren't entitled to a woman's body, and women should have free will over what they wear would be quite hilarious if it wasn't so offensive to the women who have kindly bothered to share their experiences to be met by other women with ''Shut up, you are oppressed, if you don't say you are, you are either lying or living in a fantasy world. Lie about being oppressed yourself otherwise you are responsible for the oppression of the couple women who are indeed oppressed and forced into wearing the Niqab."

Mumsnet can be quite an awful and anti-feminist place at times.

To every women who have come forward to humbly share their story of wearing a Niqab THANK YOU, some of us really appreciate you and the guts it takes to expose yourself to abuse from the community (and offline), and I personally, thoroughly appreciate it!

Linning that’s brilliant - I grew up in a very Muslim part of the U.K., none of my female friends have ever been forced to wear hijab/niqab etc, it has always been a decision they have come to over time due to their personal relationship with their religion.
There’s some really good books out there about Islamic feminism for those who genuinely want to learn and challenge their views on this.

@TheFuckingDogs

Linning that’s brilliant - I grew up in a very Muslim part of the U.K., none of my female friends have ever been forced to wear hijab/niqab etc, it has always been a decision they have come to over time due to their personal relationship with their religion. There’s some really good books out there about Islamic feminism for those who genuinely want to learn and challenge their views on this.

I don't believe that. they MUST be oppressed, they just don't know it. Mind passing me their address so I can go knock at their door and tell them how oppressed they are? I feel it's absolutely my duty to (impose myself) save deluded women who believe they are happy and exercising their free-will by wearing a piece of clothing that have a meaning to them and like from doing what they want with their body by telling them they are oppressed and should stop wearing what they want and wear something that is less offensive to me instead. Anything else is oppression really and needs to be challenged.

Thank you for the recommendation, will order some, this thread has made me want to inform myself even more on the challenges (bigotry) Muslim women face when wearing a Niqab by choice. So thank you!

Thank you @Lining, you've really laid it out the way I couldn't and I second your statement of appreciation to the muslim women here who have shared your experience. Some of us are truly listening.

@022828MAN why is it anymore ridiculous than women who choose to wear make-up, shave their legs etc?

Its no more insane, its equally ridiculous. But any woman I know that wears make up and shaves knows that they do so due to societal and cultural pressure.
I said that the insane bit is the PP up thread claiming she wears niqab purely out of free choice.

@thisenglishlife the deaf are not a tiny minority 20% of population have impaired hearing, what is true is that being completely deaf is a tiny minority
I mentioned earlier that masks scarves around mouth and niqabs muffle sound so the speaker needs to speak louder and clearer, most deaf people lip read to a certain extent ( there is a problem in that the word deaf is used for both complete and partial hearing loss) I have no objection to people wearing niqab if they want to . The only time I would have a problem is if the wearer of a niqab mask etc has a job where communication is key for example many doctors dentists nurses etc would normally remove masks to talk to patients as many patients are elderly and hearing problems increase with age, and I would expect a doctor dentist etc with a niqab to make sure they communicated with patient not thinking they can just write a quick note or talk to me via my better hearing husband daughter etc and expect them to repeat everything so I could lip read someone else

Linning

Nice straw man, but a lot of feminists don’t just mutter ‘my body, my choice’. Choice is absolutely not divorced from context.

The niqab is public erasure of women. It’s meant to erase women from public life and relegate them to the domestic sphere.

A niqab-wearer usually won’t socialize with a male who is not a family member. How many opportunities for career, friendship and knowledge are lost? Here in the Gulf, so many women are cut off from opportunities the rest of us take for granted.

Again, I really don’t care about the hijab, but the niqab is sexist; otherwise, why don’t men ever wear it? They cover their heads and their body, but never their face. Think about it.

What's ironic about it. You are misunderstanding the term. Most people don't want to wear face coverings, they have to either because of rules for entering places, going on public transport or temporarily so that they don't get the virus.

Presumably women who wear the niqab actively choose to wear it as opposed to doing it because they are forced to? How is that ironic?

the face covering is a red herring, the skimpy bikini is a red herring. The real issue is misogyny !
^^
This!

@HelloToMyKitty all Muslim women can not socialise with men who aren't a family member. Just as men can't also. It works both ways.

@HelloToMyKitty

Linning

Nice straw man, but a lot of feminists don’t just mutter ‘my body, my choice’. Choice is absolutely not divorced from context.

The niqab is public erasure of women. It’s meant to erase women from public life and relegate them to the domestic sphere.

A niqab-wearer usually won’t socialize with a male who is not a family member. How many opportunities for career, friendship and knowledge are lost? Here in the Gulf, so many women are cut off from opportunities the rest of us take for granted.

Again, I really don’t care about the hijab, but the niqab is sexist; otherwise, why don’t men ever wear it? They cover their heads and their body, but never their face. Think about it.

Why do you feel so strongly that women SHOULD be public, surely they should be if they want to but shouldn't I have the right to NOT be if I do NOT want to? Or to be ''public'' in the way that sounds and feel right to me? Why do YOU feel like it's for you to dictate how ''public'' I, or any other women should be? How is that not some form of entitlement towards their being?

I am not discussing the case of women who are INDEED forced and cohersed (because that's obviously wrong and a totally different ballgame), I addressed only the posts of women who came here and declared they were doing it because they WANT to and are confronted to people like you.

If a woman choses (again, emphasis on choice here) not to interact with men and limit herself in that way, this is absolutely her right. It's not for you to suggest women should have more contact with men than they are comfortable with, just because you see it as normal and less ''limiting'' (maybe if there was more women in position of power, it would be less limiting anyway).

I barely have any male friends, I have been sexually (and physically) assaulted by men repeatedly and have no interest in connecting with them more than strictly necessary (plus I am gay so actually have really little contact with them as a whole, bare the ones from my family), it hasn't impacted my life whatsoever. The fact that you perceive something as limiting to you, because it would impact your life, doesn't mean it has the same impact or level of importance for people who do it by choice and might not value the same things. Lots of factors in my life limit the opportunities/friendships and ''knowledge'' I get to have access to (my race/my sexuality/ my choices, etc...), some I might experience a sense of loss over, most I absolutely don't though. The fact that you see interacting with men as a vital part of life is fine, but I absolutely don't find it vital to me, nor do I feel like I have missed out nor will miss out for not doing so. You acting like you know better what's beneficial or damaging to people who chose to partake or not partake in some specific things or interactions is much more damaging to me (and other women like me who feel similarly) than my lack of interaction with male, thank you.

I'll say it again, how is you trying to force me and other women and/or guilt-trip me and other women who are making the CHOICE not to interact with men in anyway different to men trying to force me to interact with them because they think I will benefit from it and/or should? You are trying to force women to go above their boundaries and have contact with men they DO NOT want to have because you would feel better about it and have been made to feel privileged for doing so. This is NOT okay. ( And maybe ask yourself how worrying it is that for having access to most opportunities in life, according to you, one would need contact and socialization with men? Why can't a woman have equal access to opportunities without the need of men? And why do you see that as this wonderful thing women should look up to? and as something less oppressive?).

The thing IS feminism is about letting women have CHOICES. It doesn't matter that you perceive the Niqab as sexist, your vision of the Niqab should NOT trump the right of a woman to wear it if she wants to. Being a stay-at-home mum and not working and living off an husband high flying job might not be the most ''equalitarian'' thing to do and could be considered by most as really ''reductive'' and ''1950-like'' yet surely, women should still feel entitled to do just that if they want to. Or do you also comment on posts from women who mention they are stay-at-home mums to tell them, they are being oppressed and perpetuating sexism by making a choice for themselves (however detrimental it may be to them long-term)?

I don't have to ask myself why a man don't do something I only have to ask myself '' is it my right to tell a woman what to wear, who to chat and interact with, and request she expose more of her body because I feel she should?" and the answer is NO. Men shouldn't have that capacity either and yes I do know why men don't wear it (I can see the sexism while also acknowledging it doesn't erase a woman's right to pick), but the point is that some women WANT to wear it and what you or I think about it doesn't matter. The fact that you think it should is problematic because the point of feminism is to emancipate women from having to justify and apologize for doing something that makes them happy, yet you (and others) seem to feel that not only should they feel bad about wearing a Niqab but that they should go against their wishes and wills to comply with yours just because you gauge yours as better because they fit within what you see as (your own) feminist ideology and ''women emancipation''. All I see personally is hypocrisy.

STOP trying to control women and feeling like what you think about an other woman and her life choices matters more and holds more weight than her own lived experience and feelings about it. Your thoughts and feelings don't trump theirs and you aren't truly advocating for women if advocating for them is forcing them to adopt YOUR standards of living regardless of whether or not that's what they want for themselves. Plenty of women love aspects of their culture that cannot be understood through Western lenses, and would absolutely recoiled at the idea of living a similar life to UK/US or European women. The goal is for Women to have EQUAL rights within their country not to ''Westernize'' worldwide women and force them to live according to Western (or your own personal) standards, which is what you seem to aim for.

Just a small reminder that we did try to do that in the past and it didn't work well...

STOP and LISTEN to women who are humble enough to share their experiences with you, take their words at face value and acknowledge what they are saying, listen, stop trying to impose what you believe they want and actually listen to what they say they want and feel. Why are you invalidating them? Why are you telling them you know better? Why are you saying that the British/Western way is the better way? Why don't you see that doing all the above is problematic and why? Stop trying to westernize people and actually listen to other women, we are ALL different, we ALL want different things, it's not about what YOU want for them but about what THEY want for themselves. Hear their grievance and do your part in making sure they obtain what they need, not what YOU (as a western person) think they need.

Well said @Linning thank you for this!

@022828MAN

I said that the insane bit is the PP up thread claiming she wears niqab purely out of free choice.

Are you a mind reader? Why can't you just believe her?

Its not ironic at all- do you even understand what ironic actually means?

Many women are forced to cover their faces/hair out of male oppression, not because of a pandemic. In Iran for example, you get arrested for not covering your hair as a woman. Its a way to subjugate and oppress women in my opinion- not the same at all.
Oh, and for those who say coverings are a great religious thing and brings you closer to God- if thats the case, why is it that men never wear them?!

@AlexisCarrington

The irony is as DeeDee says ‘all the people who were shouting "it's so wrong not to be able to see a person's face/ their lips moving!" "Children will be scared!" & Now...here we are.’

That is ironic.

I’m not convinced that any of the people against the hijab/niqab on this thread give a shit about Muslim women. It’s another stick to beat Muslims with.

It’s another stick to beat Muslims with.

Ah and here we are with more 'phobic' accusations when someone disagrees with you.

Most of us care about women being controlled and oppressed. As I said I feel exactly the same about women conforming to societal pressures like makeup, cosmetic surgery etc too.

And Linning, what you're talking about is choice feminism, it's very harmful to women as a whole.
I'd bet you support sex work as an industry too, don't you?

@Muslimah2020

Well said *@Linning* thank you for this!

No problem, when I see this thread I genuinely wish I could do more.

As someone who is also part of a minority and have to deal with similar bullshit (aka white privilege thread) on a daily basis, the fact that women try to claim that they are feminists and wanting to emancipate women all while censoring them and telling them they know better than them because what we (as people of color in my case or in your case Muslim) have to say doesn’t fit their agenda/beliefs is absolutely sickening. Even more sickening is that in 2020 there are still women who are purposefully mixing up “Women Emancipation Worldwide” with “Westernization of Women Worldwide”. Considering this is a UK-based forum and we are in the middle of BLM, you would think people would be extremely aware of trying not to impose their own standards and lifestyles, into minorities and/or discriminated subgroups against their will, but guess not!

I am genuinely sorry that you came on this thread with good faith and opened up about your life as a Niqabi woman and other women invalidated you and your experiences and tried to make you feel as if their choice/will/thoughts were better and mattered more than your right to chose and be free and felt the need to rub their (in this case for the most part, perceived) “privileges” in your face to prove to you how much better it is to be «westernized». I am even more sorry that those are the same ladies who will preach they are advocating for you and your rights as a Niqabi/Muslim woman and your emancipation when they were the first to censor you, guilt-trip you and belittle you for happily being who you are and and being honest about your experience.

Take no notice to the guilt-tripping tactics, we live in a world where labeling one self (as a feminist) is more important than acting according to one’s beliefs (acting like a feminist).

I am glad you feel happy being exactly who you are and wearing a Niqab. Again, I genuinely appreciated reading your posts and learning from you, so thank YOU!

all Muslim women can not socialise with men who aren't a family member. Just as men can't also. It works both ways

Except ... they very often do. Through work or other social events here in the Gulf. It seems only women have to follow these rules. I know a lot of local men and while not terribly deep relationships, I do speak and work together with them on projects. My DH cannot say the same about local women.

I addressed only the posts of women who came here and declared they were doing it because they WANT to and are confronted to people like you

They are not confronted by people like me. It is the norm here, more often assumptions are made about me and my sexuality, actually (i.e. I am easy because I am not a Muslim nor do I cover my hair).

Why can't a woman have equal access to opportunities without the need of men?

I live in a literal patriarchy. Women don’t have equal access to opportunities and you know it.

Facilities for women are inevitably worse than the provisions for men. Why do I always have to walk in the side entrances of government buildings, while men can walk in the big front entrances? Why are there always fewer staff for the women’s area? Why are there are only one or two ‘women’s’ days as compared to men? If they treated minorities like this, it would be apartheid, but because it happens to women, it’s okay. It’s just their culture 🙄

It is sexism. Full stop.

The thing IS feminism is about letting women have CHOICES

Choices don’t exist in a vacuum.

Plenty of women love aspects of their culture that cannot be understood through Western lenses, and would absolutely recoiled at the idea of living a similar life to UK/US or European women

That’s fine, but equally, you should realize how incredibly sexist these practices are to Westerners, and refrain from doing them in Western countries?

I dress modestly and use the women’s ‘separate-and-totally-unequal’ facilities here because I chose to come here, knowing what it was like.

So, if you go to the West, please make the same and do not hide your face, as that would cause discomfort to the locals.

The goal is for Women to have EQUAL rights within their country not to ''Westernize'' worldwide women and force them to live according to Western (or your own personal) standards, which is what you seem to aim for

If you’ve read anything I wrote, you’d know that while I personally think it’s sexist, I am not trying to get them to change their own countries. The women here have to do it. And are doing it, FWIW.

But women do not have equal rights in the Gulf, and it’s absolutely ridiculous of you to claim that. Did you know that in order to work, I needed my husband’s permission? Yet, he wouldn’t need mine. Does that sound equal to you? In legal cases, a woman’s testimony is still somehow worth less. If you are raped here, you can be jailed. Where is the equality?

Why are you saying that the British/Western way is the better way?

All I am asking is that the same due consideration be given to our culture and way of life. We consider the niqab a public erasure of women. It relegates women to the domestic sphere, to the home. It is incompatible with modern feminist principles.

Hear their grievance

What is their grievance? Okay, many women do not want to participate in the public sphere, fine. But many do and cannot because of social norms. Does that seem right to you? Or is it okay because that’s the culture?

This is not my fight, and women in the Gulf have made great strides in equalizing their society. But there are still large gender gaps here, as I outlined earlier.

Do your part in making sure they obtain what they need, not what YOU (as a western person) think they need

Please, this is a very wealthy society and they need nothing from me. But my thoughts are my own.

Oh, and for those who say coverings are a great religious thing and brings you closer to God- if thats the case, why is it that men never wear them?!

They never address that. Sure, men in the Gulf do cover their head and dress to cover their bodies. It’s actually quite sensible dress style given the climate. BUT they never cover their faces. I dunno, seems pretty SEXIST to me.

@022828MAN

Ah and here we are with more 'phobic' accusations when someone disagrees with you.

What are you referring to?

You won’t even believe Muslim women who say they wear the hijab/niqab out of free choice.

Do you tell your non-Muslim friends not to wear make-up or that it’s a patriarchal tool? I’m guessing not.

@HelloToMyKitty

There are reams of scholarly advice on whether Muslim women should or should not cover their face.

Why don’t you educate yourself instead of expecting Muslims to educate you?

Isn’t that the whole point of #BLM as well? That you educate yourself? The information is out there.

@022828MAN

It’s another stick to beat Muslims with.

Ah and here we are with more 'phobic' accusations when someone disagrees with you.

Most of us care about women being controlled and oppressed. As I said I feel exactly the same about women conforming to societal pressures like makeup, cosmetic surgery etc too.

And Linning, what you're talking about is choice feminism, it's very harmful to women as a whole.
I'd bet you support sex work as an industry too, don't you?

I support women’s right to have consensual sex with whoever the fuck they want, yes, including for pay if that’s what they want.

Are you for women being controlled ?

I have some friends who are sex workers, they could easily afford not to be but they WANT to be. It’s not my jam but it’s theirs and yes, you bet I support their right to use their own body as they see fit.

Supporting independent sex workers who chose to do sex work and are 100% consenting has nothing to do with supporting the sex industry as whole.

I support the rights of women to have full control of their body and full body autonomy to perform whatever they want with it as long as it is 100% their choice and of their own free-will.

I don’t need to support something (the sex industry) to support someone (sex workers).

But here we go again with «"feminists" removing free-will and choices from women is less oppressive than men removing free-will and choices from man.»

NOT EVERYONE IS OPPRESSED. If you want to fight oppression of certain groups (oppressed Niqabi women and Sex-trafficked sex workers for example) FOCUS on that, fight the actual issue (Sex-trafficking/abuse) don’t remove rights and free-will from women who are part of those groups but aren’t oppressed to free other women.

Be fucking consistant.

Your type of feminism is « My feminism or the highway and no real choice but the ones I see as appropriate feminism» Which is MUCH more damaging to women as a whole.