Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

I would refuse.

A friend, who is also a colleague, got a written warning for doing that.

Is there no limit to this egomania?

@Colom

They have a non-traditional relationship anyway in the sense that they also have a boyfriend.

😂 of course they do! Jesus wept

Of course. So, so special. And everybody must notice, by remembering their special titles, or the special might not shine as brightly. Tedious.

The fact they are getting impatient with you implies this is a pointed thing. Like, if one genuinely wanted to progress into non binary recognition one would surely have patience and understanding of the time it may take for one's friends to adjust to one's preferred pronouns.

There is no denying the amount of dabbling that's going on now. It's confusing. For young people. I don't want anyone to be oppressed but likewise there's a hell of a lot of confusion going on right now.

Jesus it was exhausting writing that

If it's a good and long-standing friendship, which it sounds like it is, then just keep making the effort and apologise sincerely if you slip up again. They will understand it takes some getting used to, but it will soon become second nature to you.
During my pregnancies we didn't find out the sex and we referred to the baby as 'them' and 'they' because it's a bit dehumanising to say 'it'. It felt a bit clunky at first but we soon got used to it.

I was specifically responding to a previous poster who stated that all humans fall into a gender binary.

Scientifically speaking (assuming you mean sex when you say gender) you are wrong. Human DO fall into a sex binary. Sex is a classification system for gametes. The existence of a disorder does not negate that. Humans are a species with 46 chromosomes. The existence of people with Down's syndrome (47) does not mean humans cannot be defined as having 46 chromosomes.

I wouldn’t even bother entertaining it. It’s crackers.

No. Sorry. We are, with the exception of intersex people, binary. Biologically male or biologically female. Males are he, females are she.

Everyone has the right to express themselves however they want in terms of names, orientations, clothing, hobbies, etc etc but they can’t change the biology.

That's right Bill
Or expect us to lie.

I can't believe someone on this thread said not using people's preferred pronouns makes them commit suicide. Shameful.

just keep making the effort and apologise sincerely if you slip up again

Just no.

How come the "offence" created by this bollocks only goes one way? I find it offensive to be asked to collude with this shit, but I'm not allowed to express my offence, it's all reserved for the special ones who are so much more special than I am.
No. Just no. Fuck no.

It cost you nothing to use the pronouns they/ them and I don’t really see why it would make you uncomfortable? I can understand you thinking it strange or unnecessary or similar but I don’t see what about it makes you feel discomfort? Is there more to this (eg: them wanting to use a different bathroom?) adding to you feeling uncomfortable?

That said, it is unreasonable of them to be having a go at you when you get it wrong. I have a friend who changed his name as he hated his given name and it took me ages to get used to using the new name, I didn’t use the old one intentionally but it is hard to change to new habits. So long as you are mostly making the effort to use the pronouns they choose they shouldn’t expect 100% success straight away and get annoyed if you get it wrong.

They have a non-traditional relationship anyway in the sense that they also have a boyfriend.

Although hang on do you mean "they" as a couple or "they" as in one of the people in the relationship? See this kind of proves the point...it's just unworkable!

I would not be entertaining this and yes I would be prepared to lose the friendship over it.

I wouldn't be comfortable at all calling someone "it" though.

But it's gender neutral, or whatever the jargon is, seems to suit the purpose perfectly.

@Colom

They have a non-traditional relationship anyway in the sense that they also have a boyfriend.

Although hang on do you mean "they" as a couple or "they" as in one of the people in the relationship? See this kind of proves the point...it's just unworkable!

The nonsense is blindingly obvious to all.

I can understand you thinking it strange or unnecessary or similar but I don’t see what about it makes you feel discomfort?

Does it matter why people don’t want to collide with this?

@titchy but if you are saying ‘all humans have 46 chromosomes’ then you are saying ‘people with 47 chromosomes are not human’. That’s not an acceptable way to look at the world, in my opinion.

You can say ‘most humans have 46 chromosomes’. You can say ‘aside from a small minority who are the exception, humans have 46 chromosomes’. But you can’t define humans as having 46 chromosomes unless you are willing to define those who don’t as not-human. Personally, I’m not. And it doesn’t cost me anything to recognise that the definition of ‘human’ is a bit wider than that allowed by one single biological metric.

• collude

It costs me my integrity.

My issue is that it takes away MY freedom to use language to describe the way I see the world.

By telling someone to use certain pronouns you are policing her speech and controlling the expression of her thoughts.

I would try, as a courtesy but I would rapidly lose interest in spending time with someone who was desperately looking to be offended by a pronoun.

It is not as if you are using vile adjectives or pejorative nouns.

I have a couple of trans colleagues and it's hard to get into the habit initially, but it does get easier over time.

@LakieLady The thing with 'non binary' is some people declare they are and then sometimes do nothing to change their appearance, a bloke keeps their beard etc. With a transperson they usually are making some effort to make it clear what they identify as, so it's easier to remember.

Some transpeople actually find it offensive to be associated with the 'non binary,' some of whom seem to display no indication that they are 'non binary' unless the defining characteristic of 'non binary' is wanting to cause aggro over being addressed in a Special way.

Often they collect other ways of getting attention and special treatment too.

[quote SadSisters]@titchy but if you are saying ‘all humans have 46 chromosomes’ then you are saying ‘people with 47 chromosomes are not human’. That’s not an acceptable way to look at the world, in my opinion.

You can say ‘most humans have 46 chromosomes’. You can say ‘aside from a small minority who are the exception, humans have 46 chromosomes’. But you can’t define humans as having 46 chromosomes unless you are willing to define those who don’t as not-human. Personally, I’m not. And it doesn’t cost me anything to recognise that the definition of ‘human’ is a bit wider than that allowed by one single biological metric.[/quote]
Most humans have two legs. Those born with an unfortunate paucity of limbs are not another species, they're still human.
This argument fucks me off so much.