Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

[quote SadSisters]@FamilyOfAliens because there is so much bollocks about intersex people on this thread. I thought that Wikipedia might be a basic starting point for some people.[/quote]
Which posts about intersex people are “bollocks”? (interesting choice of adjective, there, btw).

@SadSisters

I think it’s funny that people are saying it’s egocentric for a person to ask to be referred to as they / them without apparently recognising any egocentricity in their own belief that their views on a person’s identity are so important that they should take precedence over anything else.

Most people haven't the time to speculate on everyone else's "identity". It's only interesting to you...

Believe it or not Sadsisters most of us aren't obsessed with identity; neither our own or other people's.

For a start you only use pronouns when someone isn’t there

"You" is a pronoun (and so is "I").

@SadSisters

How can you be “bad at grammar”?

Is this a trick question? I don’t get it, sorry.

Bless.

@Hotcuppatea

How about asking 'shim' to give you a call when they've worked through this phase?

This is just so offensive.

I have my own views on pronoun usage & wider issues, & sometimes it does include some inner eye rolling, but I see no excuse for rudeness towards others - especially your sneering 'shim' designation.

It hasn't always been a thing, it does sound silly and clunky at first and maybe always will, but it's nice to respect your friends' wishes and make an effort if you can.

However, it sounds like they are being a bit of a bellend by having 'heated' discussions, the people I know who prefer 'they' would never act like a twat about it if I forget. If they did I'd be fairly unimpressed. Most friends would be delighted you are trying, and not mind the occasional slip up. Unless you are constantly using she/her to get at them, I can't see the reason for a heated reaction.

@Thisismytimetoshine I’m not talking about a third sex. I’m saying that intersex people, although a minority, indicate that not all humans fall nearly into a gender binary.

I don’t think this is particularly related to transgenderism. I consider them to be separate phenomenon (except where an individual may be intersex but identify as trans). I was specifically responding to a previous poster who stated that all humans fall into a gender binary. That is manifestly not true, regardless of where you stand on the question of gender.

Now I know why German has three word, he/she/it, sensible to keep people happy

I can't imagine referring to non binary people as "it" go down very well

But should you be calling her your friend's "wife" though? Should she not have another category? "Married non-binary person" or some such shite

'spouse' is the standard sex-neutral noun. I'd guess 'they' ought to be a spouse not a wife.

There's nothing in the least wrong with singular 'they' for a person of unknown sex, and if someone is going through a phase of deciding they are 'non binary' just like everyone else tbh then it's better than the various neologisms which have been tried. But expecting friend to change their natural language 100% consistently is placing an unfriendly and unreasonable mental load on them.

Love51

^@TheFormerPorpentinaScamander
Re your friend's wife who prefers to be they not she. Are they happy about being a wife or would they prefer to be a spouse?^

I don't know. I haven't asked and it it hasn't come up in conversation. I keep thinking I should ask but then its only in situations such as this that it comes up. Usually I refer to them by their names as anyone I was mentioning them to would know them anyway. Eg I might say to my Mum "I'm planning to go to Jane and Sarah's after lockdown is ended". I wouldn't need to say "Jane and her wife" because Mum knows them. They have a non-traditional relationship anyway in the sense that they also have a boyfriend.

Colom

But should you be calling her your friend's "wife" though? Should she not have another category? "Married non-binary person" or some such shite

Possibly. I maybe should ask them. But then that feels like I'm making more of an issue than it needs to be.

@UnaCorda

For a start you only use pronouns when someone isn’t there

"You" is a pronoun (and so is "I").

When they start fucking around with you and I I'll officially throw the towel in.
Not a particularly engaging argument, really.

I think it’s funny that people are saying it’s egocentric for a person to ask to be referred to as they / them without apparently recognising any egocentricity in their own belief that their views on a person’s identity are so important that they should take precedence over anything else.

If my pronouns were 'your royal highness', would you use them? Or would you just say 'fuck off you narcissist'?

I only first I heard of it was when sam smith asked to be referred to as ‘they’ - which was only last year I think?
I find it difficult as I understand ‘they’ to be plural. I don’t get it and it sounds strange.
However, it sounds to me you are trying and I hope your friend understands.

@FamilyOfAliens

If you had a point, you would make it. Arguing like a 12 year old just shows you don’t actually have a sensible argument to make.

Though if you are actually 12 that might help explain why you don’t understand that grammar is a skill a person can be good or bad at.

@SlightyJaded Ze/Zhe/Xe were all used at different stages and by different groups of people. All of these were considered to be too confusing. Not only is "they" grammatically correct, it's a word you're familiar with and can spell and pronounce already. It's the easiest option your friend could have given you. Just try to use it, you'll forget a few times just like you'd forget to use someone's married name just after they get married but if you're not trying or apologetic when you get it wrong then it's rude.

If my pronouns were 'your royal highness', would you use them? Or would you just say 'fuck off you narcissist'?

Since when has ‘your royal highness’ been a pronoun...?

indicate that not all humans fall nearly into a gender binary.
There are two sexes. Gender is made up woo.

I would find it difficult and i think id resent it a bit.
I don't like it when people change their names either

@EarringsandLipstick I can't even begin to tell you how little I care for your offence taken. Honestly. No fucks given at all.

And if you're worried about rudeness, you're really on the wrong website.

How can you be “bad at grammar”?

Do you read Mumsnet?!

@FamilyOfAliens

How can you be “bad at grammar”?

Is this a trick question? I don’t get it, sorry

Bless

Me neither - of course someone can be bad at grammar. Can you explain your point, other than the patronising 'bless'? 😐

'She' or 'her' is OK, op. 'They' is peculiar.

The existence of intersex people proves humans aren't a two-sex species in the same way that the existence of people born with one leg proves humans aren't a two-legged species.

Intersex people are still mostly clearly one sex or the other anyway. They just have one of a range of disorders of sexual development. But even if they weren't clearly male or female - that's a disorder, and humans are still a species that comes in two sorts for reproductive purposes. That is undeniable.

YANBU. Don't indulge this nonsense.