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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why statues of historical figures are being torn down

143 replies

Rosebyanothername19 · 14/06/2020 18:55

But no one is addressing the issues of modern day slavery and child labour? Surely slavery is slavery and needs to be wiped out. The current movement is Black Lives Matter due to inequality and excessive violence by police at the moment which needs to change, so why attack historic statues?

My husband and I were just talking about it and thought I'd ask. We may have missed something. I will admit that I haven't been watching/reading the news excessively.

Just to note, I fully support BLM and I'm not trying to goad or be disrespectful.

OP posts:
hammeringinmyhead · 14/06/2020 23:08

Are you black?

just removing the statues isnt going to make the blinders bit of difference.

If not, then the above statement is not up to you. If you were a black Bristolian, would you not feel safer going about your business knowing that the people around you, neighbours, colleagues, had agreed that a monument to someone who transported 84000 black slaves should not stand?

jobhunter7 · 14/06/2020 23:13

Think the decent thing would be let people vote on whether they want the statues there or not.

If they don't, they go into a nearby museum. Perhaps with a balanced history and not covered in paint.

CharlottaCarlotta · 14/06/2020 23:20

There’s quite a bit of slavery in the bible. Especially in Genesis. They’ll be wanting to get rid of that next.

Rosebyanothername19 · 14/06/2020 23:24

@hammeringinmyhead
Just regarding the Bristol statue, I strongly suspect that most people wouldnt previously have had a scooby who he was or why there was a monument to him.
Once educated in who he was then the vast majority would probably have agreed that it wasnt appropriate and should be removed and placed in a museum. Or like I said earlier a plaque made to tell the full story and commemoration for all affected. Or melt him down and make a new statue of relevance.
The whole of Bristol was pretty much built on the backs of the slave trade, the whole of england for that matter. I just dont understand vandalising statues makes anything better. But you're right, I'm not black and I will probably never understand, but I am trying.

OP posts:
1ForAllnAllFor1 · 14/06/2020 23:33

Re-writing history from the voices of the victims might be the best way... to eradicate the racial provilages which was built upon the backs of black slaves and the lives of BAME in general.

Go BAME!

hammeringinmyhead · 14/06/2020 23:37

The majority did agree. I live half an hour from Bristol and local people have campaigned for years against this statue. Decades, in fact; since the 1990s. A local primary requested to change its name from Colston in 2015. Colston Hall, a venue in the city centre, is changing its name too. Unfortunately, the local council refused to remove it so the people did it instead.

LlamaHammock · 14/06/2020 23:37

Once educated in who he was then the vast majority would probably have agreed that it wasnt appropriate and should be removed and placed in a museum.
His participation is the slave trade has been well known in Bristol for some decades, but the statue still stood.

LlamaHammock · 14/06/2020 23:58

Again, BLM is about anti-racism and white supremacy (with a focus on how it oppresses black people). Obviously one of the ways that white supremacy manifested was through the slave trade.

Modern day slavery appears to be a separate phenomenon and largely irrelevant to the discussion.

As to the statues - they are one, particular symptom of white supremacy that are displayed in public places. It is entirely unsurprising that they attract attention during a protest against white supremacy.

PotholeParadise · 15/06/2020 00:29

[quote Rosebyanothername19]@hammeringinmyhead
Just regarding the Bristol statue, I strongly suspect that most people wouldnt previously have had a scooby who he was or why there was a monument to him.
Once educated in who he was then the vast majority would probably have agreed that it wasnt appropriate and should be removed and placed in a museum. Or like I said earlier a plaque made to tell the full story and commemoration for all affected. Or melt him down and make a new statue of relevance.
The whole of Bristol was pretty much built on the backs of the slave trade, the whole of england for that matter. I just dont understand vandalising statues makes anything better. But you're right, I'm not black and I will probably never understand, but I am trying.[/quote]
As I said before, the locals tried to get a new plaque installed explaining who he was and what he had done. This is from an academic earlier this week:

mobile.twitter.com/KateWilliamsme/status/1269713381973516290

People who say - authorities should take statues down after discussion. Yes. But it isn't happening. Bristol's been debating #EdwardColston for years and wasn't getting anywhere. In 2018, it was agreed that statue would bear a plaque noting his involvement in the slave trade. BUT
Then it proved impossible to find a wording that everyone accepted. The first plaque that it bore, added when it was erected in 1895, said 'Erected by citizens of Bristol as a memorial of one of the most virtuous and wise sons of their city'. NO mention of slavery. (2)

Later in 2018, Bristol Council unveiled the wording for the second plaque, “As a high official of the Royal African Company from 1680 to 1692, Edward Colston played an active role in the enslavement of over 84,000 Africans (including 12,000 children) of whom over 19,000 died (3) en route to the Caribbean and America. Colston also invested in the Spanish slave trade and in slave-produced sugar. As Tory MP for Bristol (1710-1713), he defended the city’s ‘right’ to trade in enslaved Africans. Bristolians who did not subscribe to his religious and (4)political beliefs were not allowed to benefit from his charities'.

The wording had been discussed by various groups, including children from Colston Primary School (name now changed). But it proved impossible for the Council to get it through. (5)Some councillors objected. And then the Merchant Venturers got involved and pushed for various changes, including removing the reference to 12,000 children and to focus on his philanthropy (and not to note it was selective) (6)

The new plaque read, Edward Colston, 1636-1721, MP for Bristol 1710-1713, was one of this city’s greatest benefactors. He supported and endowed schools, almshouses, hospitals and churches in Bristol, London and elsewhere. Many of his charitable foundations continue. This (7)was erected in 1895 to commemorate his philanthropy. A significant proportion of Colston’s wealth came from investments in slave trading, sugar and other slave-produced goods. As an official of the Royal African Company from 1680 to 1692, he was also involved in the (8)transportation of approximately 84,000 enslaved African men, women and young children, of whom 19,000 died on voyages from West Africa to the Caribbean and the Americas. (9)

The Council refused this altered plaque and the Office of the Mayor, Marvin Rees, who has been on TV today, rightly said it was 'unacceptable', particularly the lack of reference to those enslaved. That was in Spring 2019 and the plaque has been under discussions ever since. (11)

Some Bristolians said to me privately that they were pessimistic about the likelihood of an agreed text and thus that the only plaque for ever more on Colston would be the one calling him 'virtuous and wise'. (12)

So everyone saying, why couldn't Bristol just discuss it and bring it down through agreement? It's not that simple. While statues are being discussed and changes blocked, black people have to pass them daily, seeing the congratulation of slave trading, their horror and pain. (13)

Lifeisgenerallyfun · 15/06/2020 07:11

@jobhunter7 - exactly, thank goodness there still remains rational people in this world.

Ethelfleda · 15/06/2020 07:22

Why not create a national museum to house all these statues in. Each one can contain a full piece on why the statue was erected in the first place - and why it was removed. People need to be educated on these topics. Pulling these statues down is a part of history.

There was a post on our town’s local FB page over the weekend from an Ex-Marine who was ‘concerned’ that a monument in our town would be vandalised by BLM protestors over the weekend. He was calling for people to come and help him protect it. Fucking inflammatory moron.

Luckily, nobody actually decided to go and the statue remains untouched. Funny that Hmm

Moonmelodies · 15/06/2020 07:54

This reply has been deleted

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minniebinnie · 15/06/2020 07:55

Modern day slavery appears to be a separate phenomenon and largely irrelevant to the discussion.

I have no issue with statues going in to museums but completely disagree about this point.

The uncomfortable truth is our country like many rich Western countries was built on the backs of others. Taking away rights from others made "us" rich & gave the population more rights.

This still happens today, as a population we prioritise our needs & wants over other people's lives in other countries. For example my need to get my nails done, eat cheap bananas, have the latest gadgets & fashion, fly when I want all impact on the lives of others. Why is that ok? Surely that involves othering those people in other countries? How can you tackle systemic racism in our society without addressing that?

CherryPavlova · 15/06/2020 08:05

@Ethelfleda

Why not create a national museum to house all these statues in. Each one can contain a full piece on why the statue was erected in the first place - and why it was removed. People need to be educated on these topics. Pulling these statues down is a part of history.

There was a post on our town’s local FB page over the weekend from an Ex-Marine who was ‘concerned’ that a monument in our town would be vandalised by BLM protestors over the weekend. He was calling for people to come and help him protect it. Fucking inflammatory moron.

Luckily, nobody actually decided to go and the statue remains untouched. Funny that Hmm

Statues don’t educate. That was never their purpose. They were put there for people literally to look up to. To show the minions these wonderful men.

Why would we build a museum to celebrate them further? Use the money to smelt them down and recast as something that is more engaging and does teach history. A cast of a slave ship and chains for Bristol instead of Colston perhaps? A nurse or doctor instead of Thomas Guy outside Guys Hospital. A Cub Scout playing instead of BP looking towards Brownsea Island.

Tadpolesandfroglets · 15/06/2020 08:16

Statues don’t educate, they are there to glorify or commemorate. Neither of which needs to be done in this case. I don’t see why anyone would be that bothered about it being taken down. Lots of statues are not relevant anymore or, now we have a clearer understanding of history, need to be removed. The toppling of the Bristol statue was symbolic...Bit like the Saddam Hussain one. I personally am very glad it has gone.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 15/06/2020 08:33

I would rather us keep statues no matter how offensive they are we need to know our history and not sugar coat it regardless of how sickening it may be we have to accept the fact it was part of the culture back then horrible I know but we should not censor history just because we dont like or agree with it if we start doing that we start down the path towards Nazi Germany

Oh who was that guy during the war, had a weird little moustache and shouted a lot, he was antisemitic and tried to eradicate an entire race of people, wish I could remember his name but theres no statue to him for me to remember Hmm

The length some people will try and go to justify their own prejudices and always with the faux innocence

contrmary · 15/06/2020 08:35

The problem with removing statues is that there is no clear line to use to decide who should/shouldn't be allowed to have a statue to commemorate them. Historical figures - like people today - had good and bad points.

George Washington was a slave owner.
Abraham Lincoln believed black people shouldn't be allowed to vote or to marry white people.
Nelson Mandela believed in violence to get what he wanted.
Mahatma Gandhi thought Africans an inferior race.
Martin Luther King was present at and encouraged a sexual assault.

Very few people from the past are completely innocent when held up to modern standards of sexual, racial, religious or gender equality. It is likely (indeed, highly arrogant to assume otherwise) that anyone alive today will be completely clean when compared to the standards that future generations may develop.

If past generations had erased evidence of people they no longer deemed appropriate, our knowledge of the ancient civilizations would be much weaker than it is.

Nandakanda · 15/06/2020 08:35

It's all very well to look back at history from a pampered position in 2020. The reality is that people through history did not have that luxury and were a product of their own times.

As the OP pointed out slavery is still alive and well even now, as it was before British involvement in the trans-Atlantic slave trade. British involvement was preceded by a 250-year period in which Barbary slavers took over 1.5 million people from European coasts i.e. it was normal at the time. Preventing such slavery was one of the drivers for what later became the most powerful navy in the world.

So no, such statues absolutely should not be removed because a few spoilt kids find them disagreeable. They are part of the historical fabric of the country, good or bad. Air-brushing history at the whim of some snowflakes sets an extremely dangerous precedent. They generally look nice and are not "glorifying" anything.

CockCarousel · 15/06/2020 09:04

There’s quite a bit of slavery in the bible. Especially in Genesis. They’ll be wanting to get rid of that next

GoldenZigZag · 15/06/2020 09:08

OP you don't really know much, or care about modern slavery do you? This is just rampant whataboutery.

If you did you would know that modern slavery is already unlawful and exists in the murky underworld of serious organised crime. It's not like the transatlantic slave trade that was state sanctioned and deeply embedded in the socio-economic fabric of our every day lives. There aren't going to be statutes of modern day slave traders to pull down because these criminals just aren't visible or lauded in the same way. They're not legitimised in the way trans Atlantic slave traders were.

I'm also not clear why you're laying modern day slavery at the feet of the BLM movement as if it's their issue to sort out. I worked in the field of human trafficking for a few years and the majority of my caseload were Vietnamese boys. We did have a lot of west African girls, mainly trafficked for sexual exploitation, sometimes domestic servitude but we also had Algerian, Moldovan and Ukrainian girls in similar situations, sometimes in the same criminal network. We had Chinese adults trafficked to manufacture counterfeit DVDs, whole families trafficked to work in restaurants and take aways, Eastern European men trafficked to work in agriculture and so on. Modern day slavery is much more to do with poverty and global inequality than it is to do simply with race (though race and well worn colonial routes are still relevant of course, just not in the way you seem to think they are).

There are all kinds of international operations and legal instruments designed to tackle modern day slavery. If you want to support the dedicated and extremely knowledgeable people who work in this field (rather than throwing your hands up and suggesting we're doing fuck all about it) then I would recommend you put your hand in your pocket and donate to one of the following:
ECPAT UK
Africans United Against Child Abuse (AFRUCA)
EAVES Poppy Project
Southall Black Sisters
Unseen UK
Stop the Traffick
NSPCC's Child Trafficking Advice Centre

AgentJohnson · 15/06/2020 09:20

If you want to support the dedicated and extremely knowledgeable people who work in this field (rather than throwing your hands up and suggesting we're doing fuck all about it) then I would recommend you put your hand in your pocket and donate to one of the following:
ECPAT UK
Africans United Against Child Abuse (AFRUCA)
EAVES Poppy Project
Southall Black Sisters
Unseen UK
Stop the Traffick
NSPCC's Child Trafficking Advice Centre

This with bells on!

Op it isn’t our job to educate you, if you are genuinely interested then do something and no self congratulating finger pointing isn’t what I mean by doing something.

minniebinnie · 15/06/2020 09:25

@GoldenZigZag do you see no issue with the point raised in my post (I have no issue with statues in museums)?

The uncomfortable truth is our country like many rich Western countries was built on the backs of others. Taking away rights from others made "us" rich & gave the population more rights.

This still happens today, as a population we prioritise our needs & wants over other people's lives in other countries. For example my need to get my nails done, eat cheap bananas, have the latest gadgets & fashion, fly when I want all impact on the lives of others. Why is that ok? Surely that involves othering those people in other countries? How can you tackle systemic racism in our society without addressing that?

Tadpolesandfroglets · 15/06/2020 09:52

@Nandakanda ‘a few spoilt kids’?! 😳

Ethelfleda · 15/06/2020 10:58

Why would we build a museum to celebrate them further? Use the money to smelt them down and recast as something that is more engaging and does teach history. A cast of a slave ship and chains for Bristol instead of Colston perhaps? A nurse or doctor instead of Thomas Guy outside Guys Hospital. A Cub Scout playing instead of BP looking towards Brownsea Island

Good point. Much better idea than mine Smile

1ForAllnAllFor1 · 15/06/2020 12:22

Moonmelodies

Interesting whataboutery.

Is it because this post hurt your patriotism and you need some respite ?